Have you ever fallen into the trap of comparing yourself to others? Their success… their achievements… actually, have nothing to do with you, says my guest this week Dov Gordon. Dov helps people in the corporate world transition into becoming six-figure consultants and coaches. But anyone who’s struggling to grow a new business can benefit from his strategies.
In this episode, he shares techniques for clearing away “mental blocks” so you can tackle - and achieve - your biggest, boldest goals. And he’ll highlight the only three things you need to create the business success you deserve.
Listen in now to discover…
- When you should listen to your gut - even if your brain is yelling at you to stop
- How to find the right answers… by asking better questions
- The dangers of long-term thinking
- Why “outside” feedback can give you the clarity - and kick in the butt - you need
- Everybody feels self-doubt - here’s how to get over it ASAP
- And more
Listen to Dov Gordon now…
Dov Gordon | Figure Out Your “Ultimate Destination” as an Entrepreneur and Your Path Will Be Clear
In this episode, we're talking with Dov Gordon. Dov is a consultant. He helps consultants, coaches, and all kinds of professionals find their ideal clients consistently. There are millions and millions of consultants and coaches out there who are good at what they do, but maybe they're not the charismatic guru types and maybe they don't want to be. They love their work and all they want is a predictable way to get clients. There is an expert in that. I'm excited to have him here. We've been friends for a long time and several years ago I was a client of his and he brings great wisdom and insight. He's going to bring that to you as well. Dov, welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for having me, Steve. Somebody contacted me on LinkedIn and mentioned that they get a lot out from my material and from my brother. I said, “My brother? Who’s my brother? My brother doesn't do anything publicly.” He said, “Isn't Steve Gordon your brother?” I said, “No. As far as we know, we're not related at all. We've never met in person, although we've done many video calls.” I just thought that was a little off. It’s interesting how you get a little bit of information here and it turns into a story in people's mind not necessarily that they didn't do anything wrong, it's they make assumptions and see things, make connections and build from there for better or for worse. That’s what we all do. I know part of what you talk about is the mindset. We make these connections and then we act as if it's true.
I'm sure it has a lot to do with the fact that we've done so much together over the years. Before we dive in, if you can give everybody a little bit of context for how you got to this point in business so that they understand a little bit about your background.
I'm self-taught and still learning. I have a lot to learn. I'm always learning. Back a couple of years after I got married in 2000, let's say 2001, 2002, I decided I was going to start a business as a business coach and consultant. The thing is I had never held a real job. I have never been coached. I have never been part of any consulting group, so I didn't know what I was doing, honestly. I remember asking one of my earliest clients who, looking back, I'm grateful for him for him for many reasons, “How many employees does a million-dollar business probably have?” which was a naive, ridiculous question. It was very kind of him because he recognized I was helping him with a specific aspect, and obviously I was comfortable looking stupid. He gave me some perspective on that which I still appreciate. That's where I was starting from. What gave me the courage to start was this inner knowing that I know I could be good at this. I seem to have a certain understanding or a sense of certain things that seem to be able to help other people. I've been reading business books of all different types and personal development books and self-help section in the library for many years from when I was thirteen or so. I already had a lot of knowledge and information. Now I was going to be put to the test and discover the knowledge and caring and intelligence. None of these are enough to make it into a business on their own. That's where I'm coming from.
We were comparing ages before we started recording. If I do the math right, you started your current business when you were 20, 22, somewhere in that ballpark?
I was 22. I got married at 21 and studying a little bit for a year. Then there's time to make a living. It took me about a good seven, eight years to figure out how.
This next question will be relevant, because like the audience, we've all been through it. Anybody that's tried to build a business knows that it never goes quite like the guy who wrote that book who's on the fancy cover and got the great photography done it himself. It never goes how that guy says it's going to go. There's these weird little dead ends that you run into and you make the wrong turn here and there. Things can be very difficult. Everybody finds a way to push through that, those that make it through. What are some of the things that you've drawn on over the years to get through when you hit those dead ends?
There were some tough times along the way. I remember having a wife and three kids down to our last $1,000 with no idea of where the next $1,000 was going to come from. There was a period of time where I went and tried to get a job because it wasn't working and I didn't see a way forward. I didn't know how to get where I wanted to go. I went for some interviews at some consulting firms. Then it looked like I landed a job, which probably would not have paid well enough, and that was in 2008. Between my interview and when they were going to be a decision, that's when Lehman Brothers collapsed and the consulting firm decided they were going to wait for hiring anybody, which was a great move for me because I'm not made for working. I have my own ideas and I like doing things my way, which is true for so many of us who go out on their own. I would have made a terrible employee anyway. It got to that point a number of times. However, all along I always felt that I had this inner knowing that I was on the right path and if I continue, eventually things will fall into place. Eventually they'll come together. We all have this inner knowing, and then there's the self-doubt. Self- doubt comes to us because on the inside we know that we can do this somehow even though we don’t see how. On the outside we see all this evidence that you can't do this, and that creates the doubt. You've got $1,000 in your bank account. You have no idea how you're going to pay the bills. You can't do this.
There is that tension between the inner knowing and the outer circumstances which creates doubt. You have to constantly listen to that inner knowing. It doesn't mean that you're irresponsible or reckless or whatever. It's like the book, The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho. I read it many years ago. There are the omens. You have this inner knowing, but there are also these signs along the way. There's always something that happens which is almost like the universe's way of telling you to keep going, “Don't worry, it will work out one way or the other. Your job is to keep going.” To me that's been an important mindset. I can share to others, but we can start with that.
When did you start the mastermind?
When we first met, it was on a Skype call like this. You always carry yourself with, from the outside, what appears to be this confidence, like you've got it all under control. That's important. It's easy for everybody to see on the outside that that's what you're showing, but we've all got this story. I've interviewed so many people now. We're in up to 40 or more people that we've interviewed over the last year having this same conversation. Almost everybody has this story of, “I was going to have to take a job but I just kept pressing on.” You'd never believe it with any of them because the outward appearances, they've got it all together. It's useful for people to see that that struggle is going on while you're maintaining this presence to the outer world.
I know I struggled with this, although I’m certainly getting freer and freer every year. For whatever reason, we all like to believe or tend to believe that the other person has it all together. It looks good from a distance. Maybe you've heard this. Maybe your mother told you the same thing, but my mother told me and her mother had told her the old story where if everybody would come together with a sack of their problems and put their problems down, and you had a chance to choose any sack you want to take anybody's problems, everybody would choose their own sack and go back home. You heard that one?
No, but it's great though.
It's true because we don't know what other people are going through the way we know what we're going through. We do ourselves a great disservice by assuming that everybody else has it all together. There's another thing also that it's a related idea, but it's different but related, that is that people have to recognize what they want. What do you really want? There are so many people that I’ve talked to over the years and they don't realize they're chasing someone else's dream. When you're chasing someone else's dream, you're not going after what you want. There's no way you could win. You're sacrificing everything along the way, the things that you're going after something to avoid something as opposed to create something.
For example, you mentioned this group that I have. I have a joint venture marketing mastermind group. We've got 100 plus people in there. Some of them are doing from mid-six figures up to eight figures. There are few doing eight figures as far as I know, many comfortably in seven figures. It's not my dream. My goal isn't to build this seven-figures in scaling and growing my team and so on. I have a small little team. I want to be making mid-six figures with a small team that I can work with and that's what I want, and time, freedom and the ability to have more demand than my capacity to deliver. That's what I want two years from now maybe. I'm saying this because it took me some time to recognize that you have to clarify what you want and become comfortable with what you want. What you want is great.
It also connects to another important idea that helps me. Not everybody wants the same thing. Another belief that I’ve learnt over the years and have come to believe, although I still have my moments where I get chicken from it and need to remind myself, is that if I want something, then the means to get it is right in front of me. All I need to do is take the first step and then the next one will start to unfold. There's always something you could do. Here's the problem. If you're not going after what you want, then the means is not right in front of you. I'm not going to make any effort or attempt to explain the spirituality aspects of how the universe works, I’ll leave that to other people. I'm just saying what I’ve noticed.
My wife and I, years ago, I remember when we were struggling, we talked about how I remember saying to her, “The money always shows up after we need it.” I realized that it shows up after we would want it, but just when we need it. It's important to believe and know that whatever you need is going to show up when you need it. Don't act out of fear. Ask yourself, “What do I want to create? What do I want to build? What do I want?” I have no desire to be a basketball player. When I was a kid, I wanted to be an astronaut, but that's certainly not to anymore. I had no desire to be an accountant. I'd be terrible at it. There are so many things I have no desire to be, a surgeon, a medic, I’m queasy with those types of things. People talk about broken bones and my wife looks at me and she knows I’m shuddering. There are things closer to what I want that I could still fall into the trap of comparing myself to other people who are much closer. I'm not going to compare myself to a surgeon because the bottom line is that the clearer you are about what you want, the easier it is for you to believe that the main way forward is there. Then look for what is the next step that I can take? What can I do right now to get a step closer? it's easier to believe that. Over time when you start to do that and live that way, and then you start to see things fall into place often at the last possible minute, often after you would have liked it but right when you need it. You start to realize, “I can't explain it, but it certainly seems to be true and this is the best way for me to live. I'm performing at my peak when I'm the living demonstration of these beliefs.”
There are a couple of key things that you said there. I'll start with the first one that struck me. It's difficult for a lot of people to figure this out, and that is, “What do you want?” That takes some discernment, at least it did for me. It took a little while to understand what I want this to look like without it being clouded by the outside comparison because there's so much of that right now. I don't know if that's new and unique in human history, but certainly with our ability to communicate now we can see into the lives and experiences of other people more than we ever could. You have a lot more comparisons that you can make. It's difficult to clear away all that clutter and noise to understand what you want and then be okay with whatever that answer is, whether that's “I'm going to be the guy that puts a settlement on the moon,” or, “I'm going to build a business that helps this group of people do this,” and then understand that if that's what you want, there's no judgment around it. There's no justification needed. The only justification for it is that you want it and then be okay.
I personally believe that we all are here for a purpose and what we want is directing us to our purpose. We will have a special help to get there if we follow it. That fits with what I was saying, but here's the problem. You ask so many people what they want and they tell you what they don't want. That's number one. The other thing is you ask them what they want, they don't tell you what they want, they tell you what they think they can have. Why did they think they can have it? They're looking at the evidence on the outside which creates the self-doubt instead of looking to the inner knowing on the inside. If we can shift where you're looking for your evidence, instead of looking outside and saying, “I only have a $1,000 in the bank. I don't know how I'm going to make another client and where it's going to come from,” you don't have to know all those things. I'll talk about the only three things you'll ever need to know, but if we shift your point of reference, what is the foundational information that you’re using to make your decisions, to take your action? If you look at that inner knowing and say, “What do I want? It doesn't matter that I don't know how.”
First, what, then how, and then you accept that as a fact that if that's what I want, then it's coming from some bigger source than me and that's where I need to go. That means that the way to get there is right in front of me, and if other people can do well, it has nothing to do with me. Other people can do well or poorly. My job is to do my best to be my best. That's how you go from where you are to where you want to be. There's always a challenge because let's say you say, “I learned to be more confident,” which I’ve certainly learned to be more confident over the years. I was not confident when I started and certainly not as a team.
There are only three things that you ever needed to know. You need to know what's your ultimate destination. You don't have to know exactly how much money you want to make. Like in my case, I know that I want to be working with these people making this amount of money when they work in these number of hours a week, more or less with people that I enjoy, a great team, however I define it. There are other things as well, the family. You want to have a framework of where you want to end up. You don't need every single detail. That's a distraction. You don't have to write the entire 700-page novel of where you want to be in a few years. Even that wouldn't be enough if you get to that level. You need to know where you want to end up.
The second thing is you have to get a clear picture of how you need to be as a person to naturally fit into that picture, into that movie. If you're imagining your life three years, five years from now, you're presumably imagining a life that's different than today, and that means you have to be different to fit into that picture. You have to be a bigger person. You have to be more of who you are meant to be and watch yourself. How does that person deal with an obstacle, deal with the challenge? You need to have a clear picture of how you need to be as a person to fit into the picture of what you want.
The third thing you need to know is what is the next small step? That's it. You don't need to ever know anything more than what's the next small step. Take that next step the way that future you would take it. Be that way today and take the next small step.
The problem is people get all caught up and instead of visualizing and imagining what they want, they spend the majority of their day thinking about what they don't want. They spend the majority of their day thinking about what they feel they could have instead of what they want. Therefore, they're never getting this image about how the need to be as a person. Instead of taking the step that's right in front of them, they're worried about, “What will I do after this step that's right in front of me?” I don't need to see the steps right in front of me because I don't know how I'm going to take step two or step three. How will that cross the second bridge? How will I cross the third bridge? I'm not even going cross the first bridge, which of course makes no sense. I'm as guilty as anybody about that type of thinking certainly in the past.
What I was going to get to before though is the realization that most of us tend to have certain personality, strengths, or weaknesses. Throughout life, we're conquering them to varying degrees. It's a never-ending ladder to climb. Maybe somebody finds it difficult to step up for what they want when other friends or people are more assertive around them. They shrink in the background and don't say what they think. They're suffering and the people around them are suffering because they're not getting the best of this person. You're going to grow through that to a certain point. Now you've achieved a level of confidence or mastery at this level.
Life is not going to let you sit there because that would be pretty boring. Life is going to throw it, put you in a position where you're going to have very similar challenges in a much higher level. Now you're going to be leading a thousand people in something, and you're going to be butting heads with somebody else who's leading 10,000 or 100,000 or whatever has a bigger thing. Now again, you find yourself being challenged and tested for the same types of things, but with the stakes are much bigger. Who will you be? Be that way today. Take the next small step.
Let's talk a little bit about this idea of the next step because that's one of the concepts that you gave me that was critical. We're diving deep into some very important concepts and some important thinking around understanding what it is that you want and what you're trying to achieve. You linked these two ideas together elegantly. You have this idea of understanding what you want, but then you couple that with allowing people to let go of having to figure it all out and focus on the very next step. I know from the time we worked together, I had hit a brick wall. I've had some success but I was having trouble getting over the hump to the next level. You pointed out that I was trying to work ten steps ahead instead of focusing on the very next thing. I think it's important. You talked about that a little bit and where you've come to that observation.
I'll say something that I still remember from our conversation. We're going back probably five years or so. I remember we had our sales conversation and at the end they said, “I can help you like this and this is the price.” You're like, “I need to think about it.” I looked at you and I said, “Steve, you're fooling yourself,” and you paused. Do you remember this?
That was a difficult decision at that time. I had some success with the business. I was about two years into this since I'd started this business, but revenue had gone from an acceptable level to an unacceptable level over a short period of time. Honestly, when we were having that conversation, I had no idea how I was going to pay you the fee that you wanted and that's why I paused.
I was hoping you wouldn't mind that I'm bringing it up, but you were being exactly like we talked about. You were doing that. You had some inner knowing, I presume, that this is the right direction, but you were worried about how and do you recognize. This is where so many people get stuck. I'm answering your question by pointing to you as a model. I hope that's okay. This is where people stop, where they don't know how. They look outside them and they don't know how, so they stifle that inner knowing and say, “I don't know how I'm going to pay for it so I'm not going to do it,” and they walk away. This is how life works. You have to show that you're ready, and then the tools and the means show up. You have to be that person first and then the next step falls in place right in front of you. Many of us know this intellectually but don't live it this way. That’s why when I looked at you, I said, “Steve, you're fooling yourself.” I think you said, “What do you mean?” I said, “Because you know you should do this. You’re just scared.” You said, “Yes, you're right. Let's do it.” That's why today you are where you are and you've come a long way. You're doing well from what I understand, at least it looks like to me. I'm answering part of your question by making that point. Feel free to clarify further, but that is a perfect example of what we've been talking about.
Yes, I think so. There've been a number of inflection points in both of my businesses and they all center around an opportunity that I had to invest in getting some outside insight. I’m at the point now where I know that every time that opportunity comes up, the answer is yes. The question is, is this the right person with the right input at the right time? That's a valid question. Assuming that I'm answering yes to those things, then the answer to the investment is always yes. The thing that I’ve noticed is that every time I make that investment, that it is immediately followed by a dramatic leap in the level of the game that I'm playing and revenue follows them.
It's been funny to look back now. I've been doing this for almost 25 years and look at all of the very stark jumps and they all come after something like that. One of the reasons that works well is that you get somebody from the outside who doesn't have a dog in the hunt, who hopefully will give you honest feedback and input. I called you this, I’ve called every person I’ve ever worked with this, my paid pain in the ass. Your purpose is to say, “No, you're seeing this all wrong,” and understanding that the most important thing is knowing where you want to go and what is the next step. Beyond that, there isn't much that you need.
There is that second step in the middle, knowing we want to go, recognizing how do you need to be as a person to fit in that picture, and then taking the next small step. That's a huge deal because there's the old expression “birds of a feather flock together.” I don't know how this works exactly, but it definitely seems that the world works like this, that people are drawn to other people like them. Bill Gates has never come to me for advice. I'm not playing at that level and I don't want to be. I don't have any desire to be going back to that. Somehow, those people at that level find each other. They're drawn to each other. There's something about them that draws others. If you want to be the person who attracts better clients, people who are ready to step up and invest with you, the way you want to be paid, you have to be that way.
I remember another conversation with this guy. He was like, “I want to be a business coach and I want to be charging $1,000 a month.” When it came time to invest in himself at that type of level, “No, I can't afford it.” You can't be a pigeon consultant and attract eagle clients. It doesn't work that way. It's so much about you. You have to know where you want to go. Recognize what you need to be as a person. The reason is when you step up, now you're acting as somebody who believes that you're capable of more. You should be achieving more. You know that. How do you know that? Because why the hell else would you agree to invest all that money in yourself? Once you start to be that way, you've broken through. You're acting that way and you prove that to yourself, and now something changes in who you are and people around you start to pick that up.
I found that the two things that had been greatest for my growth of confidence is investing in myself. I just joined another program. It’s not cheap, but it's been great because it was the same experience as you described and turning away clients who are not a good fit; in both cases you're focused and you're telling yourself, “I'm not desperate. I'm better than that, and I'm going to behave I'm going to be better than that. That changes how you're being. When you come to the office and when sit down to work, it's different. There are a lot of people who end up working with us after they've spent a fortune elsewhere. Some people don't end up working with us because they've been burnt elsewhere after spending that fortune. Sometimes they were promised things and it was not delivered. The key though is to look at ourselves and recognize, “Where could I have taken more responsibility?” because that's your growth. Pointing fingers at the other rarely helps anything. It doesn't help to be a victim. Whereas other people didn't do what they promised, the question to think about is when you decided to put that money down, was it coming from this inner knowing that that's the right thing, or wasn't there this, “I know I should do this?” Let me explain. I know we never got to that real second topic, but we'll try.
We tend to think that we should listen, to make decisions, based on what our brain tells us and not our gut. Here's the thing. Sometimes your gut says, “Do something,” and your brain gives you all the reasons why you shouldn't do it. You could have listened to your brain. Your brain says, “I don’t know how and where am I going to come up with the money? How can I commit to this if I don’t?” Your gut says, “Do it,” and your brains give you all the reasons, the what-ifs. At that point, if you listen to your brain, you're stifling your growth. You're not going to grow. You have to listen to your gut. It's the other way around as well. If your gut says, “Don't do this,” but your brain is coming and talking you into it, “It'll be good. This will make it all work for you, then you won't have to figure it all out.” There are rationalizations that your brain could give you to then spend the money when your gut says, “I don't know about this. I don't know if this is the right thing,” it’s not going to work. We have to learn to listen to the gut and then give the brain the right job. If your gut says do it, and your brain says, “What if,” as Tony Robbins likes to say, give your brain a better question. If you sense this is the right next step for you then, “I need to spend $15,000, $25,000, $40,000 now for this consulting help, coaching help.”
Let’s say your gut says, “I should work with Steve. I should work with Dov,” and your brain says, “How am I going to pay? What if it doesn't work out? I'm going to be out on the street.” You have to give your brain a different question and say, “Brain, how do I make sure that this works? I know I should do this. How do I make sure that this works? What are five steps or ten things that I could do to ensure that this succeeds, to ensure that I not only make back my money, but a profit within 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, whatever it might be?” Suddenly that same brain is giving you ideas to that much better question. I guess if we go back to the whole basis of the conversation, what do you do when you hit a wall? You have to realize that you're probably asking a bad question, a poor question. You're probably giving your brain a job and you're like, “Why didn't this prospect call me back?” You start to think about, “They probably don't want to work with me.” That ruins your mood for the day so you get nothing else done because you're thinking, “Why does this ever happen to me? Will I ever get this working?” and all those things. We have to realize whether we’re asking ourselves the wrong question.
Bottom line, know what you want, at least for this first segment which is stretched into the second segment. Know what you want. Realize what you want. Don't look to others to figure out what you should want and what's possible because your dream is not their dream. Their dream is not your dream. Figure out what you really want to get a clear idea of how you need to be as a person to make that movie actually work, and then be that way right now. Take the next small step in front of you. Once you're doing that, believe, know that it's true, that if that's what you want, if you're going after what's right for you inside, then the means to get there is in front of you. The next small step is going to work and it'll take you forward. Once you take the next small step, you'll suddenly be able to see further the horizon. You can see further than before and you'll see and it will be clear what the next step after that is.
We live in society today where too many people think that they have to be following somebody else's idea of what they should want. I'm talking about all different types of situations. I've talked to a lot of women who feel pressured to go out and build a business and do something. They're chasing the dream that they've been sold. I may be a very conservative fellow but women should be able to start businesses and do anything that they want but, just like men, they should not be convinced they want something if they don't and shouldn't be pressured to do something they don't want. I'd probably got myself in trouble, but I'm talking about equal opportunity for everybody.
That actually works on both sides. I see that with both male and female business owners who maybe want a business but there is this pressure to build a seven-figure business. That's the magic number for some reason these days. I don't know why that's the magic number. I've had a business at that level. It's great but it also has its challenges just like everything else. Nothing is perfect. I have a lot of friends who have businesses at the eight-figure level. It's wonderful for them, but I can tell you that they're not doing it by themselves in their underwear on the beach. That doesn't exist. It comes with some other trade-offs that they've got to make, but that's what they want and that's okay. Whether you want the $8 million or the eight-figure or the nine-figure or the ten-figure business or you want something smaller, it doesn't matter. I don't think we're sitting here advocating for either one, but know what you want and why you want it.
Don't let others pressure you into thinking you're wrong because you do want something or don't want something.
I know we've gone on a little bit long but this has been valuable. I know you've got a ton of stuff going on right now. You just started a new daily email, which is brilliant. Having done that for about five years, I know what a grind it can be so I applaud you for that.
You’re still doing that, right?
No, we stopped about a year, a year and a half ago. We now publish every week. We may go back to daily. I've got a book that will be coming out in January, I’ve enjoyed writing now, so maybe we’ll get back to it, but you've got that going on.
It's five days a week. My commitment is only week to week. I could stop at any time or change my commitment.
You've got that going on. You've got great programs always. What's happening right now that is most exciting in your world?
My focus is working with consultants, coaches, and experts to replace and exceed their corporate salary. We're helping six-figure executives, which you were a couple of years before we started when you went out on your own, transition to become six-figure consultants, coaches or experts. Some of them are still in their job and they want to be smart about how they make that transition. Some of them have left and they've discovered that the skills that you need to thrive as a solo consultant, coach and expert, are not necessarily the same skills that you need to do well in the corporate world. Some people get lucky, some people have a strong charismatic personality and things take off for them right away.
Most people take a while longer. We want to be sure that these good people are heard in the right place. They’ve a lot to offer, carrying, mastering their skills, and they want to go out and create more value for their clients. It kills me to have these get emails from people who left their job two, three, four, five years ago and they still have not met and exceeded this fluency. There's this thought and you've managed to replace their past salary and they're frustrated, stuck. It's not a good thing. Our focus is working with great people like that to make sure that they don't have to do that. That's the main thing. That's what we love. At this point, we can only take on five to seven new clients a month. From time to time we have a little waiting list. We love working with people to master the mindset and the skills to build the business that they want to build. That's exciting for me.
Where can people find you?
We’re at DovGordon.net. We've got a free gift for anybody who found anything enlightening. For five years, we sold the Manual, How to Systematically and Consistently Attract First Rate Clients. This is a process that we take clients through. We sold this for five years for $97, 80 plus page. I'm giving it away for free. We have a link for your audience, DovGordon.net/Unstoppable. I'll be very honest, the reason why I decided to start giving away for free is because I realized that there were some people who go through that and many people make changes with that alone, but many people would then say, “This is good stuff, but I can see how important it is to get help with this,” and it's brought us some clients. I realized that that makes a lot more sense for everybody giving away something tremendous, like its real value. There's no fluff in this. This was not written to be a giveaway. This is written to be sold and it'd be worth it.
I paid for it. I've still got a copy somewhere.
That was probably before our current system.
If they go to a DovGordon.net/Unstoppable, they can get that. It's been great to get back together and a good time to reconnect. We'll have to have you on again. I'd love to talk about the mastermind and how you built that because that strategy that you have applied there is absolutely brilliant, and it's been fun to watch over the last seven or eight years now. Dov Gordon, thanks for being here.
Thank you, Steve.