Charlie Moon | Sales for People Who Hate Sales

The biggest obstacle to business development for consultants and professional service providers – and salespeople in general, says Charlie Moon, is the fear of sales. 

It’s that emotional turmoil that as one of his clients put it, causes “sweaty palms” when speaking on the phone with a prospect. 

Right now, Charlie is trying a new marketing method to reach potential new clients who need help with sales. 

We talk about why he chose this channel, the advantages, how he’s going to “package” his message to ensure he reaches those prospects most predisposed to say yes… and why many of his clients could actually use the same channel too.

Tune in to find out… 

  • How he’s finding his target audience(s) and speaking to them
  • The bad habits your mentors may have taught you about out sales – and how to overcome them
  • A way to get your current clients to “help” you write marketing to reach new prospects
  • Why podcasting is not what you think
  • And more

Listen now…

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Steve Gordon: Hey everyone, it’s Steve and we are about to kick off another episode of the Unstoppable CEO Podcast. And I’m really excited about this one. This is another episode in our series where we’re sitting down with business owners and I’m sitting down one on one and we’re just brainstorming how to solve a particular marketing challenge so we can see if we can find ways to get them more clients and really create some breakthroughs.

And so I’m really excited today to be talking with Charlie Moon. Charlie’s got a really interesting business. We were talking a little bit before we hit record, and he does all kinds of things. So I want to introduce him to you now. Charlie Moon, welcome to the Unstoppable CEO and I’m really excited to have you here. You’ve got some great stuff to share with us.

What Happens Left of Hello?

Charlie Moon: Thank you. You’re a kind man. I appreciate this opportunity. I work with people, I don’t know if anybody else has ever ran into this, but I ran into it when I was a sales manager in the media business. I was running two sales teams with two radio stations and what I was running into was the salespeople, I would hire them and we would, you know, we’d bring them in and we’d feed them and we train them and we would get them ramped up and get them going out the door.

And after about six months, when their draw would run out on them, they would run out on me. And then we have turnover and we start all over again. And so I got to look and I was, I found a guy that was kind enough to answer the phone and he started talking to me about something that really piqued my interest because as a sales manager, I hadn’t thought of this. But he started talking about what happens left of Hello. And we always, where most saying trainers live is between what I call between hello and thank you, right?

Hello, Mr. Prospect. How do you like me now? Let’s talk about me, right? And Hello, and thank you. And so what this model is that I use and I’ve been using this since 91 in one form or fashion, I’m not very smart, Steve, but I am old. So, I started looking at this and it just makes so much sense that we need to find out if people will make sales calls. That’s what we need to know first. And so I took this profile and liked what I saw because it was like the people that had written the profile had been following me around.

And so I began to preach this gospel to people and get people thinking about this and I work with banks and professional services, architects, CPAs. anybody. Attorneys, engineers, IT consultants, anybody that doesn’t think they’re going to be a salesperson fits this because what happens is before we say hello, so left of hello, if you think about hello on a sheet of paper, to the left of that is what happens before we say hello as we go through some emotional turmoil.

And we can either get through that turmoil and say hello to that prospect or we can make excuses. And so this, the profile that I use, this assessment helps people understand why their stomach hurts. They, I was on the phone just an hour ago with a lady and we were role-playing, talking to prospects and she said, you know, even just talking to you, my palms are sweaty and I’m hot and that’s that emotional turmoil that We go through. But when it comes time to say hello, what we do is we go well, I’ll drive around the block one more time or, right?

Or I’ll check my email one more time. And so when I saw this, I knew it was a problem that I had as a sales manager and I needed to fix it. And so that’s when I, within three months, I left my job at that radio station and gone out, struck out on my own in the sales training business and that was back then when most of your listeners probably were watching Smurfs. Yeah, so I enjoy it and I think it’s really helpful to people to understand what’s going on before they say hello so that they’re able to get through that emotional short circuit. So

Steve: That’s a huge problem for just about everybody in sales that I’ve ever come across. I think it’s the number one barrier and very few people ever address that. So you’re working, I think in some fertile ground. So what do you want to work on today? We got an opportunity to brainstorm together. What do you want to focus on?

How to Hire Salespeople Without Getting Sold

Charlie: Well, I’ve read your book, Podcast Prospecting, and I thought that something that made sense with the virtual world going on now is that if I could put a book together that would explain this process to people in less than 50 minutes. My catchy, don’t steal this. You listeners, don’t steal this. But my title is How to Hire Salespeople Without Getting Sold. And if you think about it, God love them, that’s what salespeople do when they come in for an interview is they start selling you on why you should hire them.

You’ve got a problem and so you hire them. And what I see out there in the world is that people, what they do is instead of solving the problem they have is they resolve the anxiety around the problem. They don’t really fix the problem, they fix the anxiety. And what happens is they buy what’s best marketed to them, right? And so the salesperson that’s selling them on hiring them resolves that anxiety and they might hire the wrong person.

And then in six months, or three months or a year down the road, the sales manager’s pulling his hair out. And what happened was they resolved the anxiety, they didn’t really resolve the problem. And what problem-solving becomes an anxiety management process where they have a problem, the problem creates anxiety which creates a reaction which creates another problem.

So now what’s happened is they’ve hired the wrong person and they have two problems. They still don’t have the right person and they got to feed this horse that they hired every day till they figured out how to get rid of them, to be honest with you. And so what I like to tell people is let’s focus on the outcome. The outcome is we want to hire the right person to do the right job to sell the right product to the right customer, fair enough?

So by focusing on this outcome, we can put some tools in place for them and those tools are one, we want to find out if a salesperson will make sales calls because if they won’t make sales calls, none of that hello to thank you stuff to the right of hello will come into play. And so we want to find out one, if they’ll make sales calls, two, we want to find out how they’ll act in front of those people, in front of their prospects and customers. And then the third thing we want to find out is why they do what they do out there. Because those, and that’s a value statement. The values are the steering wheel for all that energy that we have.

And so we, our value systems come out. I had a guy one time that owned a business and he told me, he said, when my son goes into a business, he comes out with a deal. And when my daughter goes into a business she comes out with a room full of friends. And what that is, is that’s people who, the daughter values people over money, the son values money over people. And if we had an assessment, which I do, a profile, it wasn’t developed by me, I just interpret it for people, it tells us why they do what they do when they’re on sales calls.

Because if you have somebody that’s, you know, that does make sales calls and they act great, you know, they go out and make a bunch of friends, well, we need to sell something. We can’t just go out and make friends, right? So this process in this book, How to Hire Salespeople Without Getting Sold, that’s, I think those three things, and then I could sell the profiles virtually and interpret the results just like you’re doing with me right now. Do them over Zoom and all that. So what thoughts do you have?

Steve: Yeah, so I mean, as I’m listening to you, you know, I kind of run everything through a filter that we’ve created called the Inevitable Growth Scorecard. And it’s got eight different kind of components to it. And I always like to kind of look at that as a checklist. And so the things that I’m kind of checking off as we go through one of the mindsets, which is ideas that sell. So you’ve got ideas that, you know, just based on what I know about other business owners will resonate.

I mean, the whole idea of, you know, how to hire salespeople without being sold, I’ve heard it said in more than one CEO peer group, the warning around hiring salespeople, the best sales job they’ll ever do is the one they do with you in the interview. So you’re speaking to a problem that, you know, your target market is likely aware of. I think the thing that may be clarified a little bit is, I know you work with professional services. But when you really think about your absolute best client, the one who when they look at what you just described. They go, Oh my goodness. Where have you been all my life?

That’s what I needed. How fast can I write you a check? What do those people look like? Because not all of the people you’ve ever done business with probably had that reaction but a few of them did. And, you know, anytime we’re going to go to the trouble of putting a book together, we want to reverse engineer it so that attracts the ones that are already so predisposed because of the way they’re already thinking to do business with you that it makes everything else easy.

Charlie: I just sold a 12-month contract to a group that the total time, and I’m not bragging because I’m a horrible salesperson, I spent three hours with them total over the course of six months and sold them an annual contract. And this, I don’t know if this sounds vague or not, but the people that are really the best prospects are those who are technically competent but they don’t make their competencies visible to enough people. And what you have to do is, you have to find, I mean, we’ve all met engineers that were great engineers but they didn’t ever rise up in the organization because they’re engineers.

But if you look at engineers that rise up in the organization, they’re the people that have the people skills plus the technical skills. And those people are what we call natural self-promoters. Natural self-promoters have a certain style, a certain position in the market and consistency that they’re out there promoting all the time. And so what we want to do is we want to find people who need to make the competencies of their organization visible to enough people to be successful.

Steve: So how do you bring that down to kind of the practical position? I mean, how do you know that person when you see them?

Charlie: Professional services, none of the, and the reason I landed on them was because I spent 20 years in banking as a sales manager. And I was called the senior vice president of retail administration, but I was a sales manager, and everybody out in those branches, those 28 locations and hundred 68 locations at another bank, those people were all salespeople. So it’s people that are expected to get results that don’t know how to get them.

And so I show them a process. It’s either, it’s plan, it’s people, it’s process, and show them how to do that. Honestly, I don’t know if this is what you’re asking, but like, a real estate company would not really be a prospect because those people are all independent contractors. Insurance is tough sometimes because they’re not, they’re independent contractors. And I’ve had insurance people just shrug their shoulders and say we don’t care if they make it or not.

You know, that’s up to them, not us. So professional service is where you’ve got a bank that’s trying to build a loan portfolio, or you’ve got CPAs who are trying to build a practice and become a partner in the organization. They all have business development goals that they have to meet but they have no clue how to go about it. All they know is that their stomach hurts when it’s time to go talk to somebody. And if you can relieve that anxiety and that pain, that’s helpful.

Steve: Well, I think you just articulated maybe one of the warning signs or one of the indicators of when you’ve come across an ideal client. Not that you would see that externally but, you know, when you make that statement, that’s going to hit the people you’re trying to reach. That, you know, when you have to go talk to another human being about, you know, taking have their money and giving them something for, you know, in return, that they get their stomach tied up in knots, their palms start to sweat. You know, they get nervous, you mentioned earlier, they circle the block one more time. I think all of those sorts of things kind of help you connect.

So, you know, as you’re thinking about this book, I mean, the one thing that occurs to me, I always like to, with book titles, one of the things that I have learned, you know, after five of our own books and dozens of books for clients is that the title is the really most critical piece of the whole book. Like if you have the greatest, you could write the most profound information ever for your target audience inside the book but if it’s got the wrong title, no one will ever know.

Charlie: Exactly what you’re saying is what I say. It doesn’t matter how good you are hello to thank you. So the content of the book is your hello to thank you. The title is the hello. You got to get their attention.

Steve: Right. Exactly. And, you know, and so that title has got to do some real work. We judge books by their covers. You know, no one goes into Barnes and Noble, you know, when you could go to Barnes and Noble, and reads the book first and then goes, I want to buy it. They look at a cover graphically and look at the title itself and maybe they then look at the subtitle and some of the quotes, but most people don’t even get that far. It’s just the main title and does it grab them?

And is it speaking to a clear and present problem of pain that they’re feeling right now? You know, and so I think that’s the key thing. Like it sounds like you’ve got all of the content for what will go in the book, and probably have it right on target. But I think the question is, what’s the right title and what’s the right subtitle so it calls out the exact type of prospect that you want? So when you’re talking to these professional service firms, who hires you? Is it the, you know, like the managing partner, the CEO or the president?

Charlie: So, the person that I talk to is the person who is in charge of the performance of the people I’m going to be working for. So honestly, if you go talk to HR, they’re not the person. The person that you want to talk to is the person that is in charge of the people. The performance of the people. So managing partner, Senior Vice President or Executive Vice President of commercial lending, managing partner of an architecture firm.

The people that have the problem. If you go to my website, there’s a picture on it. I love it. It’s a picture of a guy that’s beating on his laptop and he’s just, you could tell he’s just so frustrated. And underneath it just says is this you because when you see those results, and you’re hearing all these excuses, rather than results, you want to know what’s going on.

And a typical sales manager will think well if they just close or if they love their products or if they thought enough of themselves or if they had a greater ego drive and, you know, if they, you know, all this stuff, and it’s really, no if they just go say hello to more people. I think the word hello is the most important word we can say. I mean, we wouldn’t be having this conversation if you hadn’t reached out and said, Hello.

Steve: That’s right. Well, and I, you know, and I think that might be important content in the book. And I think the thing to think about with the titling of it is, you know, asking yourself, what’s the problem they’re walking around with that’s bugging them? It could very well be around hiring salespeople but it also could be around something upstream of that, you know, sales in general.

There’s an advantage and a disadvantage to kind of going down the road of titling this thing around, you know how to hire salespeople without being sold. See, that’s gonna speak specifically to somebody who’s in hiring mode, okay? And if that’s where they need to be for you to really be able to come in and help them, then that’s probably the right title. It might not speak to someone who feels like they’re not in hiring mode, but they’ve got a sales team that’s not performing.

Charlie: Well, yeah. So when I talk to people, I tell them we can that these profiles I use, we can use them for selection and we can use them for development. And it’s better to not hire a problem, right?

Steve: Of course, right?

Charlie: It’s a lot cheaper to buy one of these profiles and get the interpretation of here’s what you’re buying but also just for the development of the salespeople so that they can learn to control this behavior that previously has been controlling me with the drive one more time around the block or I can’t prospect for anybody because I don’t want to be rude or intrusive or pushy.

Steve: Yeah. And I think the question to ask yourself is, which group am I going after? Am I going after the guy that’s got the immediate hiring problem or am I going after the one that has the sales team development problem?

Charlie: Well, I, you know, the quick answer, I don’t know if you want the right answer or the quick one, but I’ll give you the quick one. I think it’s the development part of it because there’s, you know, one of the pages on my website is called feeding the horse. And once you buy a horse, you got to feed it every day. Whether they’re producing or not, you’ve got to feed it every day.

And so, that’s the benefit of being able to develop people around this. It’s also the toughest thing because you’re asking people to change their behavior. You know, changing behavior is, you know, they got, you know, they gotta want to change, you know? It’s the old joke about how many people does it take to change a light bulb? Well, it just takes one but they’ve really got to want to change it. So it’s true with developing salespeople.

Steve: Well, you know, go ahead, I’m sorry.

Charlie: I was just gonna say once that they see a path and they understand the path because we tell them not only what’s going on, but we tell them how to fix it and how to learn to control that behavior rather than letting it control them.

Steve: So, yeah, I mean, I think just from my own experience, I think that’s probably the bigger side of the market because anybody that has a sales team has a sales team development problem. I’ve never met anybody who had a sales team who didn’t have that, right?

Charlie: Isn’t that wonderful?

Writing a Book as a Means of Self-Marketing

Steve: Yeah, it means you’ve got a big market and it’s not going anywhere. You know, but they’re not always hiring. And what I’m kind of hearing is that there might be two books. And, because I really love the title, but I don’t think it’s the right title to go after somebody who is really frustrated by the fact that their existing salespeople are not producing.

You know, unless they’re of the mind, I’m just going to clean house and I’m going to rebuild. You know, but most people aren’t going to do that. So, I really, what I’m hearing are two books and this is one of the things that, you know, most people really, they run away from because they see creating a book as being a really difficult and arduous process and it doesn’t have to be.

If you’re writing a, you know, a big-time thought leadership book and it’s got to be 50,000 words, you know, to get it on the bestseller list or whatever, yeah, then you know, that’s a much more difficult undertaking. But I’m a big fan of, for most businesses, just building out what, you know, what I call a lead generation book or what we call a referrable book. And those tend to be shorter and because they’re shorter, they don’t take very much time to put together.

And that gives you the flexibility to have kind of a suite of books to sell for you that are really problem and prospect specific. And the thing that really becomes great about these is that a lot of times, the content from one to another is very similar. I’m not suggesting you wholesale copy it, but it, you know, your methods for helping somebody are going to be somewhat consistent across industries and across, you know, those, the two kind of trigger points that we’ve talked about already. You know, it’s sort of the same prescription but for two different diseases.

Charlie: Because you’re still talking, you’re talking about behavior. It doesn’t matter if you’re talking to the right person or if you’re talking to an author or an engineer.

Steve: Yeah. And so, you know, for the person who’s got the sales hiring problem, they also have all of the follow on problems that the sales development challenged person has. But they’ve also, but they’ve got a couple added on to that, you know what I mean? So that now they’ve got the selection. So all of your content around using the profiles becomes focused on using them as a filter rather than using them merely as a development and behavioral modification. tool. Am I on the right track?

Charlie: Yeah, I think, yeah, I appreciate it. Because I, you know, it’s just more, it’s more opportunity.

Steve: Yeah. So, yeah, I think so. So I think then the question is, all right, well, you’ve already got a great title for the book around hiring salespeople. So what would be a really compelling title for someone? You know, who’s got this in place sales team but isn’t performing. So what are some of the kind of bleeding neck problems that they have? What drives them crazy every day? What do they say?

Charlie: I don’t know, I had a client one time tell me that the way we approach business development is we aggressively wait for the phone to ring. So I know, that’s not the title but it’s, that’s that anxiety of, more excuses than results and like that.

Steve: Well, and, you know, for a lot of professional services firms, I mean, from my own experience, you know, I owned, I don’t know if you know, but I owned an engineering consulting firm for quite a while.

Charlie: I’ve checked you out.

Steve: Yeah. And so I mean, we started off, you know, and our approach was we would just let the phone, I love the way you put it, we’re aggressively waiting for the phone to ring. And for a lot of firms, it’s that. You know, it’s, they don’t know what to do because they weren’t prepared for it. And, you know, and so I think, you know, they’re going around doing all this stuff that’s sort of been handed down generation to generation.

I mean, the business development wisdom in professional services is largely this kind of oral history of what used to work, you know? And it was what only what, it really reminds me of like cavemen wandering around and they stumble upon the herd, you know, and they can say, they can point over there, the herd’s over there or the waterholes over there, right? And then it becomes passed down from generation to generation. This is how you go about surviving. In professional services, it’s really that way. It’s oh, you know, you got to be on these committees, you got to be involved in these charities.

You know, it’s, here’s how you network. I’ll never forget the founder of the firm that I bought told me at one point that, you know, he always felt like it took five years to develop a new client. And, you know, and when he told me that as I was kind of coming into the leadership role in the firm, there was no other thought that you could have planted in my mind that was more frightening, you know? Like, Oh, my gosh, like, if it’s that difficult to generate a client, where do I invest my time? Because I can’t afford to be wrong.

Charlie: That, just what you said there, the five years reminded me, I was calling a guy, and this was years ago, and he told me when I was calling on him as an outside guy, and he said, Well, we’ve posted the job internally. You know, we’ve posted this role internally and we have a couple people who are interested.

And I said, Well, there’s plenty of work out there for all of us. Just make sure that those people don’t teach your people their bad habits. And I could literally see him cringing. Just thinking, oh my gosh. And I said, because what happens is if they haven’t dealt with these call reluctance behaviors, if they haven’t dealt with their value system, if they haven’t, they’ll teach your people their bad habits. And he was like, I got a call two weeks later and it was a wonderful deal.

Steve: I bet. I bet.

Charlie: Yeah. So what that guy was doing was teaching you his bad habit of Yeah, it’ll take five years to, but yeah, no it doesn’t.

Steve: No, it doesn’t. It doesn’t need to either. And so, you know, I think digging a little bit deeper into, how they describe that problem of, you know, I’m not getting clients, that I don’t know how to do. I don’t know how to open the relationship. I don’t know how to get to hello. Maybe that’s it, how to get to hello. But it needs to be something that they’re going to recognize.

And so the way I describe this a lot of times when I’m doing presentations is I use the idea of lead generation vectors. And one of the things that I’ve learned about titles of a book is that they are really good at having prospects raise a hand. And come kind of on this inbound vector. You know, if you think about, you know, an airplane being vectored into an airport, right? They’re coming from a particular direction, a known direction.

When your prospect raises a hand and they’re coming from a very specific known direction, you know how to engage them in conversation at that point. And, you know, and you mentioned my Podcast Prospecting book. So the insight that we got about that book and it’s really proving to be true with it is that, you know, we’re looking for people, that book is kind of fishing for people who, number one, they need more clients, okay?

Because if you don’t need more clients, we probably can’t help you. There’s no point in us talking, right? If you’re happy, you know, we’re not gonna be able to help you. You need something else. So that’s kind of at the minimum, but if we stopped there and that’s all that we did and our primary service is centered around helping people build a podcast to get those clients, then we’re going to talk to a lot of people that have no interest in ever doing a podcast. And that’s going to be a waste of time for everybody involved, right? So if it was just, if all we said was here’s a book on prospecting for professional services, we’re dead.

We add the word podcasting and now we’re sort of solving for the two most important variables in the equation, right? I need more clients and I’m at least interested enough in doing a podcast that I want to read this book. And so, if you can begin thinking about it in those terms, like what direction do I need these people coming from? And that might involve the prerequisites, you know? And so it might be around the fact that they already have a sales team that’s not performing.

You know, it might be around the fact that they have a sales team that isn’t full of salespeople, you know, which to me, describes professional services, right? I mean, that is the professional services problem is all the people that are expected to go do business development, and we don’t even call it sales in professional services, we call it business development because we’re so allergic to sales, that we actually called it what we’re doing, none of us would even be able to get close.

So we have to call it business development, which sounds a little, you know, I can wear my suit and button it up and be doing business development, you know, and I’m not wearing that plaid jacket, like the sales guy the car lot. So, you know, I think it’s something that begins to speak to that, that, you know, that gets them on that path.

And I’d really be thinking about, you know, the clients that you’ve closed, think about the way that they talk about the problem that they had, like the very specific words, because I would imagine it’s right in there. Like, I think that’s the way you came up with the title for the other book. Those are words I’ve heard business owners say in one form or another. So I don’t know if that brings anything to mind off the bat in the conversations you’ve had with people that have already bought.

Charlie: I want to think about it, to be honest with you. Just really put some effort into it because I’d rather give you the right answer than a quick answer.

Steve: Yeah, well, and, you know, sometimes these things don’t always come right off the bat, but that’s the way I would think about it. You know, and so once you’ve got the book in hand, and you asked me earlier about podcasts before we started recording, what related to the podcast, what’s your kind of specific question, what do you want to make sure we cover there? Just overall, or?

Charlie: Yeah, just overall and how that process works and what makes it work and the success that you’ve had with it.

Putting Your Podcast to Work for You

Steve: Yeah, so there are really two routes to go to make a podcast work effectively. And neither one of those are the route that most people want to take or believe they should take. So the sort of mistake most people make is they think that the podcast is all about building an audience. I was having a conversation with one of our clients earlier today, in fact, and he’s been doing his podcast for about a year now.

And, you know, he’s like, I just don’t feel like the quality of the content is good enough, you know? Why would people listen to this? And I said, well, depends on what your business model is. He’s, you know, he’s comparing it to these other podcasts that were really, you know, highly successful, they get millions of downloads. And I had to remind him that people who have big Audiences on a podcast like that, so like the Joe Rogan’s, or, you know, the Tim Ferriss, people like that, who have these million listener audiences, they have a different business model.

The podcast is actually the business model. For most of the rest of us, and by the way, they make that work because they brought an audience from somewhere, right? So Tim Ferriss had already built an enormous audience and an email list. Joe Rogan had fame through television and comedy and his MMA competition. So, you know, unless you have that kind of a following, you’re not going to make the podcast as a business work, right? So forget about who’s listening. That’s a bonus. The purpose of the podcast is to have someplace to invite people and have conversations.

And it gives you the opportunity to really reach out and connect with two types of very valuable people. The first type of person is a direct prospect for your business. And so you might reach out to the managing partner of, let’s say, an architecture firm. Maybe your podcast is called Professional Service Success Stories and the positioning of it is you’re interviewing, you know, all of the most successful professional service firms, you know, to share their great wisdom, whatever they’ve learned. And your, you know, the easy ask is, Hey, your name came up, you know, mister managing partner or miss managing partner.

Your name came up as somebody I oughta interview on this podcast because of the success that you’ve had, right? So maybe you’re outreaching directly to prospects. That’s one way to do it. The other way to do it, and actually, the way I prefer is to reach out to people who are actively marketing to that same group of prospects that you want and they’re building their own audience within that industry. Because now you have the opportunity to actually do some multiplication. And it can be pretty powerful because you can build a strategic relationship with someone.

They’re already out there doing marketing and you can probably find a way to do some cross-promotion. And so now you come in with your book. So your book that we’ve talked about establishes expertise and authority. And it also is a great widget that makes you easily shareable. So you can go to somebody and say, you know, wow, it’s been so great to have you on the podcast. I’m so glad we shared all of your story with our folks. You know, I was just wondering, do you ever find that the people in your network or in your audience struggle with sales? And he’s gonna go Well, yeah, of course. That’s the one thing they’re always focused on.

That’s interesting, you know, I just wrote this book that is really targeted right to professional service folks and I’m on a mission right now to get it in the hands of as many people as I can. I’m wondering if it might be valuable, you know, to the people that are in your audience. I’d love to share it with them. Would you be open to, you know, just giving it to them? And about 95% of the time, they’re going to go, that’d be a fantastic idea. It’s actually in their interest to do that because we’re all in business looking for ways to give value to the people in our network, okay? For all kinds of very good strategic reasons. The problem is, it’s hard to do that sometimes.

And if you can come along and give them something that’s basically got no risk, no downside, and high perceived value, you’re going to make them look like a hero. And so that’s how we use the podcast is to build those relationships that then open the door to further collaboration. And I, what I tell all of our clients is that you want to be the one leading the collaboration, you know? I don’t know if you’ve ever, in your past life in sales, ever had a coffee date with anybody. You ever done one of those? You ever done one where the other person really rushed in and they were hurried and they were late?

Charlie: Yeah.

The Greatest Lie in Business Networking

Steve: Yeah. And at the end of that you both kind of, you went through your spiels and at the end of that, you both said wow, this was really great. Can’t wait to really, you know, create a mutually beneficial relationship. Have you ever heard those words? That’s the greatest lie in networking in business development and professional services, you know, because both people leave and they have no earthly idea what that looks like.

And what I like about the podcast is, and what I mean by being the leader of the collaboration is I mean, you’re having those coffee dates with the goal of creating some long term collaborative relationship but nobody has any parameters for how to do that. So, you know, if you’ve got a podcast, you have a place to invite somebody. And you’re able to reach out to them and say, I’m gonna be the leader here. I think you’ve got something valuable to offer. I have this way that’s low risk for both of us and high value for you.

For me to be able to come in and interview you, shine a bright light on your expertise, we’re going to record that. At a very minimum, if nobody listens, you’re going to walk away with a marketing asset because you’re going to have somebody that appears to be in the media interview you and I’m going to share it with everybody that I know that’s in my database, you know, because it’s part of my weekly marketing, I send this out.

And there might be people in my audience that ultimately want to do business with you, but what’s the downside? And it’s a way for us to start the strategic relationship. And instead of the two of you coming to one of those kind of lame coffee dates, you know, what now everybody’s doing on Zoom, right? And not having kind of a plan to move forward, you’ve come in and said, Now I’m going to be the leader here. I’m gonna create something of value for you off the bat without you having to do anything in return.

And the amount of reciprocity you create out of that is enormous. And that opens the door for you to come in and say, Well, hey, I’ve got a way I could maybe add even more value by having, you know, this book that I’ve written be a gift that you can give to everybody you know. Well, when they do that, what is that? That’s a mass referral. And if you do it in the right way, where those people are actually just given the opportunity to get the book and then they come to you to request it, you have inbound leads. So now you know who’s interested. That’s how we use the podcast. Does that make sense?

Charlie: Yeah. Yeah, I like it. Thank you.

Steve: You’re welcome. So yeah, I mean for what you’re doing in professional services, I think that’s kind of like shooting fish in a barrel.

Charlie: It’d have to be easy or I couldn’t sell it.

Steve: So yeah, I mean, and I would imagine you could use either the strategic partner strategy or a mix of that and pulling in some potential clients. You know, we’ll have it happen all the time. I’ll have somebody on the podcast and at the end of it they’ll ask me, so what exactly do you do? Well, guess what? That’s the open door to begin talking to them, you know?

Charlie: Yeah. Nice. Thank you.

Steve: So, anyway, I hope that’s helpful. I know we’re about out of time. Any specific questions about any of that.

Charlie: No, I think, continue talking. I think this is good. So thank you.

Steve: You’re welcome. You’re welcome. So, hey, Charlie, you’re doing all kinds of interesting stuff. We touched on a little bit of it. You’re doing some other stuff with nonprofits and auctions, which I think is really interesting as well. And so I think it’s worth everybody going and kind of checking you out, particularly if they have a sales challenge and have a sales team and they’re in professional services, they ought to go find out more about what you’re doing. So where can they find out more about you?

Charlie: Get Charlie Moon. So what I like to say is when business development matters, get Charlie Moon, and that’s my website,

Steve: That’s awesome.

Charlie: Thank you, Steve. There’s a nonprofit page on there that will take you over to the benefit auction page. I tell people I don’t sell cars and cattle, I don’t sell pots and pans or real estate. I raise money to help those less fortunate. And honestly, what it does is it puts me in front of a lot of high net worth people that, I was at one one night and a client that I’ve worked with for over a year now said, What are you doing? And I told him. And he said, we need to go to lunch. And I was like,

Steve: Yeah, I love it.

Charlie: Yeah. So thank you for the opportunity. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with me. Thank you.

Steve: It’s been fun. Thanks for playing the game. It’s always fun when I get to brainstorm with somebody about all these fun topics. So I can’t wait to see how the book turns out.

Charlie: Oh my gosh, now you put it on me.

Steve: That’s right. That’s right.

Charlie: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

Steve: Alright, everybody, thanks for listening. And if you’d like to kind of go beyond this episode, the best place to start is go check out the Inevitable Growth Scorecard at You can go through all eight of the inevitable growth mindsets and score yourself where you are now, where you want to be a year from now, and it’ll give you some clarity around the things that you really need to focus on most to make progress.

And if you’d like to be a guest and go through this process with us just drop an email and send it to In the subject line, say I want to be on the podcast and we will get in touch and get you all the details. Charlie, thanks for being here. Great to see you. And everybody, have a great day and we’ll talk soon.

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