Pam Wasley | The Gig Economy Sector You Should Know About


As an entrepreneur, you can feel pretty lonely. But you don’t have to face your business challenges alone, says strategic consultant Pam Wasley. She highlights a specific type of networking you can use to identify the real issues you’re facing and figure out how to overcome them.

Pam also talks about a little-known sector of the gig economy that can help struggling companies boost profits and stay competitive. This is a huge opportunity for consultants and professional service providers.

Be sure to listen to the end, when Pam offers a copy of her book and several more freebies.

You’ll find out…

  • Why “talking to yourself” can help you solve your biggest problems

  • The right way to fire somebody – it’s a positive for you and them

  • How to try before you buy with new employees

  • Questions you can use to make sure consultants actually know their stuff

  • And more

Listen to Steve Gordon and Pam Wasley now:

Episode TimeLine:

00:11 Today Steve speaks with Pam Wasley, a serial entrepreneur who has advised 100’s of companies and is the founder of Cerius Executives.

01:25 Pam explains that it was boredom that started her off in entrepreneurship, going from selling clothes to Telecommunications to Cerius Executives.

05:22 Pam talks about how she got over initial start difficulties when realising that other people must have had the same problems she had.

07:16 Steve talks about how being an entrepreneur is a lonely job. He cures this by attending mastermind groups.

09:45 Pam talks about the importance of not thinking you know it all.

13:22 Steve talks about letting employees go.

14:29 Pam explains how firing someone can be the best thing for them.

17:13 Pam explains what the Gig Economy is.

22:15 Steve talks about how we can now plug into employees abilities rather than hiring the person outright.

23:40 Pam talks about the benefits of the try before you buy aspect of the Gig Economy.

25:05 Pam explains how to source great executives.

28:45 Pam explains the different types of companies benefit the most from hiring executives.

30:55 Pam gives her tips on finding an excellent mid term executive.

33:26 Pam explains how to get in contact with her and also gives the Unstoppable CEO listeners a fantastic bonus!

Mentioned in the show:

David C. Baker | Building a Business Based on Your Expertise


One of the most painful things any expert or consultant can do is… say no to opportunity. But it must be done. Author and advisor David C. Baker, who’s been featured in the Wall Street Journal, Forbes, and more, explains how doing so will actually make your business more successful (and ensure you enjoy your work even more, too).

Building a business based on your expertise requires a unique approach. And David highlights some of the best practices for making sure potential clients recognize what you bring to the table – and pay accordingly.

In this episode, you’ll learn…

  • The 4 common mistakes of entrepreneurs – and how to avoid them
  • One of the best ways to organize your thoughts and formulate new ideas
  • The dangers of over-delivering to a client
  • 2 ways to gain expertise none of your competitors have
  • How to ensure you can charge a premium for your services
  • And more

Listen to Steve Gordon and David C. Baker now:

Episode TimeLine:

00:11 Today Steve speaks with David C Baker. David is an author of 5 books, a speaker and has advised over 900 firms.

01:58 David tells us his background and how he became known as the expert of experts.

05:36 David tells us about how he overcame issues such as depression and economic problems. He explains how writing helped him succeed.

09:34 “You don’t know what you really think until you write it”.

14:19 David tells us about his book, The Business Of Expertise. He highlights 2 major issues that work against us.

17:36 Trying to stand out from a field of experts is difficult. David tells us how to do it.

19:20 Steve explains the “Doctor Analogy”.

22:58 Confidence, Opportunity & Capacity. David explains each.

26:18 Steve talks about the real issue of being a expert but having a lack of confidence.

27:54 David explains why “your size should always be less than your opportunity”.

31:31 David explains his view on Positioning.

38:06 If you are having trouble saying no to more work, David has a solution for you.

41:33 Steve explains why it's fine to change if its not working for you.

43:42 David tells us why he admires experts.

Mentioned in the show

Cindy Schulson | The Power of Heart-Centered Marketing


Working on projects you love, with people you love working with. That’s the dream of an entrepreneur. But if you don’t market yourself and your services the right way, that goal could be out of reach, says Cindy Schulson.

Cindy specializes in helping coaches and consultants use “heart-centered” marketing to stand out from a crowd of competitors with a compelling message.

She offers practical, actionable strategies to help you appeal to the logical and emotional sides of your ideal prospects.

Tune in to discover…

  • The 4 layers of every effective marketing message

  • How to stop being a “commodity” with your business

  • The power of speaking your truth

  • Why most business fail within 5 years – and how to avoid that fate

  • And more

Listen to Steve Gordon and Cindy Schulson now:

Episode Timeline:

00:11 Today Steve speaks with Cindy Schulson. Cindy helps coaches and consultants to stand out from the crowd by marketing with heart instead of hype.

00:59 Cindy gives us an overview of her work history and why she moved from corporate to entrepreneurship.

02:40 Cindy tells us about her early struggles in strategic marketing.

04:48 Steve talks about the natural evolution of a startup.

06:06 Cindy explains how she learnt to build from her success.

07:39 Cindy created an ebook and then benefited from her own teachings.

08:59 "People buy on emotion and justify with logic”.

12:20 Cindy talks about creating a messaging platform and the 4 different kinds of messaging.

14:36 Cindy tells us to put our heart or truth into our marketing.

15:55 Steve talks about the problems of commoditization and give us an example of how he put the truth into his marketing.

18:02 Cindy gives an example of a male client putting his heart into his messaging.

19:18 Steve explains that some many businesses have no real message at all.

21:19 Cindy talks about common mistakes in messaging.

22:09 Cindy gives us a link to her free course.

Mentioned in the show:

Blair Enns | Stop Selling Yourself Short with Clients


Here’s a hard truth from my guest, Blair Enns of Win Without Pitching:

You’ve probably been undercharging for your services for a very long time. Let’s change that right now.

Blair, a sales trainer and pricing expert specializing in helping creative professionals, is revolutionizing the way they – and professional service providers, too – sell their services.

He has techniques for taking back the power in your relationships with clients that will maximize your growth and profits.

He’ll also share…

  • A systemized way to set prices for any project or any client

  • The “Meet in the Middle” technique for getting the fee you want

  • Why taking any project that comes your way loses you money

  • How to sell your value instead of your time

  • The right way to set up retainer agreements

  • And more

Listen to Steve Gordon and Blair Enns now:

Episode Timeline:

00:11 Today Steve speaks with Blair Enns, the founder and CEO of Win Without Pitching, an expert in the field of creative service pricing.

01:46 Blair explains how he became an expert in creative professional selling.

05:16 In creative services, the buyer has the power.

09:36 Blair gives us an example of a client who looked for a challenge outside of his focus.

12:50 Blair goes through the major principles in his book, Pricing Creativity.

14:23 Price the client, not the job.

19:50 Steve talks about the most common push back to this pricing strategy.

21:30 Blair explains why we should behave like an expert.

25:28 Blair explains the Anchor High pricing strategy.

29:25 Blair explains why you should really rethink retainers.

Mentioned in the show:

Tom Schwab | Using Podcasts to Get More Clients and Customers


Podcasts are the ideal way to get more leads and customers for your business, says Tom Schwab. Tom, author of Podcast Guest Profits, reveals how to make sure you get in front of the right audience when podcasting… and how to get them to know, like, and trust you.

It’s all about getting in on the conversation with your ideal customers, whether it’s on your own podcast or being a guest on somebody else’s show.

Your audience is out there but increasingly difficult to reach with traditional marketing, explains Tom. But with podcasting you can exponentially increase your reach quite easily.

Listen in to find out…

  • A step-by-step plan for using podcasts as a lead generation tool

  • The 10-minute prep ritual for a podcast guest spot

  • The 3 “M’s” you must have in place before podcast marketing

  • Why running into business barriers can be a good thing

  • How to leverage podcasts to boost other marketing efforts

  • And more

Listen to Steve Gordon and Tom Schwab now:

Tom Schwab TimeLine

00:11 Today Steve speaks with Tom Schwab of Interview Valet. Tom helps his clients get profits and led generation directly from podcasting.

01:20 Tom tells us about his background and the difference between systems and processes.

04:14 “There are profits on the other side of problems”.

06:05 Tom explains the importance of stepping back from a problem and getting other peoples advice on the issue.

08:06 Steve tells us about a time he actually listed out all the bad things that could happen before making a decision.

11:06 Tom gives us examples of how podcasts can be used as a lead generation tool.

14:11 Steve explains how easy and beneficial podcasting is.

16:50 Tom tells us what his favourite Renee Zellweger movie is and why?

17:42 Steve explains the power of podcasting regularly.

19:16 Tom gives an example of how podcasting a lot works.

21:38 Podcasting is the easiest referral strategy in the world”.

23:00 Tom explains how referrals are all about relationships.

24:43 Tom breaks down the 3 M’s: The Message, The Market and The Machine.

27:18 Steve talks about the power of the human voice in podcasting.

29:28 Tom listens to his podcasts at 1.5 times the speed. He explains how audio is the richest medium.

32:05 Tom gies the Unstoppable CEO listeners a fantastic gift!

Mentioned in the show

Jonathan Stark | The Better Alternative to Hourly Billing


If you’re an independent professional service provider this is a must-listen, especially if you’re still stuck in the hourly billing trap. Yes, it’s a trap, says my guest Jonathan Stark. One that robs you of time and money.

Jonathan, a former software developer, advocates a value-based pricing model, which leads to better quality work and better client relationships. But getting paid this way requires a whole different approach to marketing your services and how you talk to potential clients.

Tune in to find out…

  • A simple way to “productize” your services

  • The easy way to eliminate worry about scope creep

  • Why you don’t have to profit in the traditional sense with hourly billing

  • How to make sure you don’t work “too much” on a fixed-bid project

  • And more

Listen to Steve Gordon and [Guest First and Last Name] now:

Jonathan Stark TimeLine

00:11 Today Steve speaks with Jonathan Stark, the author of Hourly Billing is Nuts.

01:26 Jonathan talks about when he realised that billing by the hour was a terrible idea.

05:40 Jonathan talks about the transition to billing for quality.

07:29 Steve explains hour billing per hour was the first pyramid scheme.

10:57 Jonathan discuss at length about cost, price and value.

17:56 Jonathan talks about his unusual process of trying to talk his potential client OUT of hiring order to get hired.

27:46 Jonathan talks about the pushback points from clients on billing for value.

30:25 John talks about the billing practices of small businesses tacking 15% on for scope creep.

33:16 Steve speaks about even more benefits of not billing by the hour.

35:14 John talks about the practice of hoarding hours in the legal profession and how value based billing creates a rush service.

38:20 Jonathan talks about whether or not you should bill a client for needing to learn a new skill on the job.

43:13 Steve talks about having the courage to have a deeper conversation with a the client about the job.

45:39 Jonathan talks about how billing for value changes the tone of the conversation with the client and not to try it right away but instead try his method of practicing value billing.

50:35 Jonathan tells us about his free email course, Value Pricing Bootcamp.

Mentioned in the show

Josh Fonger | "Boring” Processes that Will Make Your Business Thrive


As a business owner are you… stressed out? Feel like you don’t have enough time to get things done? Are you not making enough money… and your business’s growth has stalled? Business transformation expert Josh Fonger, who uses the Work the System method, wants to help.

What he suggests isn’t glamorous. The tips he reveals in this interview are actually quite simple… but very effective.

And they allow you to step away from the day-to-day and make your business more profitable than ever.

Check out the interview now to discover…

  • How to avoid the traps a typical business owner falls into

  • When doing “less” can actually make you more money

  • The dangers of the Hero Complex

  • The simple “mechanics” of your business you must work on now

  • And more

Listen to Steve Gordon and Josh Fonger now:

mJosh Fonger TimeLine

00:11 Today Steve speaks with Josh Fonger, co-owner of Work The System and someone who has personally coached over 500 businesses.

01:37 Josh was a real estate developer until the crash when he moved into consulting. It was there that he met Sam Carpenter.

04:30 Josh tells us how you can grow your business by using “the simple mechanics of making more and working less”.

07:06 Josh tells us about the “heavy lifting “ phase where you hate where you are and you’d love where you’d want to be.

08:47 Josh talks about how “lifting” ourselves above your business is the first step in growing it.

11:39 Josh gives us a client case study of how to breakdown the pieces of your business in order not to become overwhelmed.

17:21 Josh gives a great if unusual case study of how GP refined his practice and grew his business exponentially.

19:57 Josh explains Strategic Direction.

22:34 Josh talks about Sam Carpenter’s call centres.

23:35 Josh and Steve explain Operation Goals.

27:05 Josh gives another client example of Operating Goals.

31:29 Josh explains that just because you’re the boss doesn’t mean you have to be the hero and do everything.

33:23 ”Don’t write down and then hire them, hire them and get them to write it down down”

37:37 Josh explains how a companies goals should filter thought the employees, not just the owner.

42:46 Josh tells us how to get a free copy of Work The System and how best to get in touch with him.

Mentioned in the show

Joe Kashurba | A Blueprint for Scaling Up a Professional Service Business


If you’re a consultant or other professional service provider, you have to listen to what Joe Kashurba has to say in this interview. If you want to create a thriving business that brings in 2X, 5X, or 10X what you’re making now, this web designer turned business consultant lays out the road map.

Joe says to find breakthrough growth you need to do two things: take on employees (but not in the traditional sense) and… get rid of some of your customers. He explains how that works, as well as …

  • Why you shouldn’t charge hourly fees

  • The two-part process for charging premium prices for your services

  • The who, what, and why you need to know before you do any marketing

  • 5+ benefits of a virtual office… and the dangers of a “real” office

  • The step you must take to make your business scalable

  • And more

Listen to Steve Gordon and Joe Kashurba now:

Joe Kashurba TimeLine

00:11 Today Steve speaks with Joe Kashurba, a web design guru and expert in scaling up business.

01:24 Joe tells us how he first started his business in high school video taping his his friends rock band.

03:04 Joe explains the struggles he had in the beginning and how marketing consistently was such a help.

04:03 Steve talks about Dan Kennedy.

05:23 Joe continues in describing other early stage issues and how he got too busy.

07:07 Steve talks about the expenses of scaling up to an office and how much better it is having a virtual office.

08:50 Joe explains why it is important in giving clear instructions in running a virtual office.

12:08 Steve and Joe talk about the virtual office stigma.

15:25 Joe talks about 10 Xing your business.

17:40 Steve talks further about 10 Xing.

18:55 Joe explains the other steps he takes in 10 Xing your business.

21:48 Steve talks about productised services.

25:54 Joe talks about getting a marketing strategy that works.

27:26 Steve explains the importance of the marketing message.

29:14 Joe explains the “who, what & why” and oil drilling.

32:53 Steve talks about getting a unique marketing strategy that works for you.

36:07 Joe expands on doing marketing tests.

39:07 Joe talks about one of his clients increasing her prices for no less work.

43:02 Joe tells us about the assembly line model.

Joe tells us how best to get in contact with him

Mentioned in the show

Michael Wenderoth | What Most Business Coaches Don't Tell You


Beware the “Kumbaya” School of workplace and leadership success, says my guest this week, Michael Wenderoth. This executive coach with an international client base offers effective, practical strategies for getting ahead at work or in your own business.

Michael says you can do it without being cutthroat and without sacrificing your integrity.

These are tactics you definitely haven’t heard before. And they’re ideal for CEOs, owners, executives, and entrepreneurs trying to navigate an increasingly complicated workplace environment, office politics, and more.

Check out the interview to find out…

  • Why nice guys or gals don’t have to finish last – if they do this…

  • The reason simply working hard is never enough

  • The “North Star” you need to keep you on track in the toughest times

  • 4+ primary habits of the most successful people

  • And more...

Listen to Steve Gordon and Michael Wenderoth now:

Michael Wenderoth TimeLine

00:11 Today Steve speaks with Michael Wenderoth, an executive coach who works with executives in the workplace to map out their career paths in the their companies.

01:24 Michael gives us an overview of his career and what drove him to be where he is today..

04:34 Michael has made many moves in his life in both career and geography. He explains how action drives insight.

07:43 Steve and Michael discuss the importance of getting comfortable outside your comfort zone.

09:00 Steve talks about how different he is now then he was as a kid and how to overcome fear when starting out in business.

14:48 Michael talks about his unique approach to power in the workplace.

18:53 Steve talks about the pursuit of happiness.

20:44 Michael explains to us why we all need to win!

23:41 Michael explains how he helps people rise in a company by creating a clear path for them.

29:03 Michael and Steve discuss politics in the workplace and how to deal with it.

35:15 Michael tells us how best to get in contact with him..

Mentioned in the show

Dan Sullivan | Grow Your Business With "Who" Not "How"

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Too many entrepreneurs find themselves stuck for two reasons, says Dan Sullivan of Strategic Coach:

  1. They don’t trust employees to do meaningful work in their business.
  2. They don’t understand how collaborating with “competitors” can be a real game changer.

But, says Dan, to grow your business 5 times, 10 times, or even 100 times where it is today, you can’t go it alone. No amount of hard work will get you there. You need other people.

Dan unpacks that concept in this episode and a whole lot more. Tune in to find out…

  • How you can get other people to help you develop new product ideas

  • Your critical – but surprising – role as the founder of a business

  • The power of multi-generational friendships

  • The worst thing you can do when setting prices

  • And more…

Listen now…


00:11 Today Steve speaks with Dan Sullivan, the founder of Strategic Coach and author.

01:41 Dan gives us a brief overview of his working life.

05:12 Dan talks about Strategic Coach and his new game changer, how he helps entrepreneurs and even an automatic pub!

13:41 Dan talks about 10Xing your business and how he is against retirement for entrepreneurs and forced retirement for others.

16:57 Dan has projects lined up until he is 99! He tells us how he’ll achieve that by using stem cell therapy.

18:20 Dan talks about the importance of setting realistic time goals and discusses the founding fathers.

23:44 Dan and Steve talk about how you can live just wanting to . 22:57 Dan explains his new Game Changer Workshop.

32:40 Dan talks about his past mistakes in pricing gives us a great baseball analogy along with his patented Sullivan pricing formula.

39:29 Dan turns the tables and starts interviewing Steve!

43:00 Dan is writing a book a quarter! He then gives us a free book!

Mentioned in the show

Joe Fier | Tearing Your Business Down... And Building It Back Up


Starting a business from scratch and turning a profit can be challenging enough. Joe Fier, along with business partner Matt Wolfe, go that extra mile. With their online company, Evergreen Profits, they constantly shift their business model – even if they’ve been profitable and successful.

The idea is to morph the business to reach a larger audience and bigger, more predictable profits. Discover how they've done it and what you can apply to your business.

Joe reveals how they make these big transitions work, as well as…

  • Why you should build momentum instead of swing for the fences
  • The best way to find out what your customers want
  • How a weekly “audit” can reveal what your business is missing
  • Why you should always start the conversation with your prospects
  • A solid strategy for turning cold traffic into reliable revenue (this is very different than what most people are doing right now)
  • And even more...

Listen to Steve Gordon and Joe Fier now:

Joe Fier TimeLine

00:11 Today Steve speaks with Joe Fier, who along with his business partner Matt Wolf, co founded Evergreen Profits.

01:18 Joe tells us how his business partner Matt is the ying to his yang and how they started Evergreen.

04:39 Joe explains the highs and lows of his business how he’s learnt that it's about just keeping it steady.

06:29 Joe explains how the twists and turns of business has led to new opportunities.

09:35 Joe talks about the importance of having a business partner who thinks differently than you do.

13:01 Joe talks about how he made a shift in his business by taking a year away from it and “road mapping”. He explains their google strategy.

18:43 Joe talks about Google Adword retargeting.

21:19 Joe talks about why he reduced his client group to around 10.

23:07 Steve breaks down what Joe and Matt have actually accomplished by backfilling their revenue.

28:02 Joe tells us how best to get in contact with him and get his content.

Mentioned in the show

If you enjoyed this epidose, please leave a review on itunes.

John Chichester | Strategies for Selling Your Business


The dream of most entrepreneurs is to one day sell their business and then sail off into retirement or another venture with a tidy sum.

But unlike financial planner John Chichester, who recently sold his business to a major player in his industry, many face a rude awakening when they put it on the market. They’re unable to get their asking price… sometimes they can’t find a buyer at all.

It doesn’t have to be that way. And in this episode we discuss what you should be doing right now to ensure your business is sellable, especially if you’re a professional services provider.

You’ll discover…

  • Strategies for building equity (and how to tell if you don’t have any right now)
  • Why “win-win” is the best way to approach negotiations
  • The importance of candor and openness for both buyer and seller
  • Navigating the emotional impact of selling your business
  • And more

Listen to Steve Gordon and John Chichester now:

John Chichester TimeLine

00:11 Today Steve speaks with financial advisor, John Chichester.

01:44 John takes us through how he ended up where he is today in business.

07:43 John takes us through his thought process over the 18 months he spent in selling his business.

11:38 John is 49 now. He talks about how think that he would sell his business at the end of his career but cam 20 years earlier.

16:25 John made sure that when his company was being bought that his team would be part of the deal. He explains why he did that.

20:05 John talks about the pricing of his business.

24:23 Steve talks about the other, tougher side of acquisition and how John attracted the right buyer.

30:26 John talkes about being the quarterback for his business and how he changed positions.

33:35 Steve talks about the vital importance of finding the person you need to rely on to ask the right questions during an acquisition.

36:39 John tells us how best to get in touch with him.

Mentioned in the show

  • (
  • TrustBank
  • Olney
  • PWC
  • Lehman Bros

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review on itunes.

Shaun Buck | Finding the “Reason Why” for Your Business

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Entrepreneurs get into business to make money, at least at first. But, says Shaun Buck, as your business grows that usually stops being a motivating factor.

Shaun, owner of The Newsletter Pro, shares how he discovered his new “reason why” and how it radically transformed his business. He also outlines how he uses a unique and powerful referral marketing strategy to land his best clients.

Be sure to listen until the end – Shaun has an awesome gift for you.

Check out the interview and discover…

  • How incremental improvements can drive rapid growth
  • Where to focus when the going gets tough
  • Why your “reason why” should evolve over time
  • Ways to land your most profitable clients with referrals
  • A strategy for doubling profits in four months
  • And more

Listen now to Steve Gordon and Shaun Buck...

Shaun Buck TimeLine

00:11 Today Steve speaks with Serial entrepreneur Shaun Buck, the founder of Newsletter Pro.

01:26 Shaun tells us how when scaling his business it pulled in many directions. By focusing its attention on fewer leads rather than more, he doubled the business in 4 months.

04:39 Shaun tells us how money was a motivation for him but not anymore.

06:34 Shaun tells us his motivational reasons for getting up in the morning.

09:23 Shaun tells us about his charitable work and how is xmas charity came about.

11:22 Steve and Shaun talk about the reasons for starting their own businesses evolved.

14:58 Shaun explains why you shouldn’t cheap out on referrals and why is giving actual TESLAS to his.

19:14 Shaun gives us a real life customer referral situation and the logic behind his decision.

25:15 Shaun talks about the benefits of a good referral partner.

28:38 Shaun tells us about his upcoming book about scaling and growth.

30:42 Text CEO to 208-269-9111

Mentioned in the show

Shannon & Bryan Miles | The Attitude You Need to Truly Own Your Business


The fastest growing workforce these days is a virtual one. And my guests Shannon and Bryan Miles were instrumental in that sea change in the world of work.

Employees working from home. Freelancers around the world being hired to collaborate on projects. Entrepreneurs starting “kitchen table” businesses and then hiring folks to work online as needed.

With their company, BELAY, Shannon and Bryan have pioneered many of the best practices in virtual work over the last eight years. Along the way, they’ve figured out how to grow their business without it controlling their lives.

Check out the conversation and discover…

  • The difference between running and owning a business
  • How to figure out the best ROI from an investment of your time
  • The 3 things you must do to empower others on your team
  • What should be the central theme of your company culture
  • Why mistakes aren’t a big deal – and how to handle them

Listen now to Steve Gordon with Shannon and Byran Miles

Mentioned in this episode

Tom Kulzer | When “Losing Control” Is a Good Thing for Your Business


Marketing automation is a buzzword these days. But, says AWeber founder and CEO Tom Kulzer, a lot of companies are going about it all wrong.

He should know. Aweber has been a pioneer in this field, along with email marketing, for its 20-year history. Its 120,000+ customers send out 4.5 billion emails every month.

Tom shares some best practices, as well as how he overcame the challenges that come with going from one-man shop to 120 employees. One of his biggest tips for CEOs: be in charge but don’t be in control.

During our conversation he explains what that means and goes into…

  • Why you should never be the smartest person in the room
  • How ego can sabotage your company and its growth
  • The alternative to “trial and error” for solving problems
  • The #1 thing companies get wrong about marketing automation
  • A simple trick for writing more engaging emails that get opens and clicks
  • And more…

Listen now to Steve Gordon and Tom Kulzer...

Mentioned in This Episode

Nathan Hirsch | Best Practices for Hiring and Working with Freelancers

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Your business is growing steadily. But you’re stressed because you can’t handle the workload… and you’re hesitant to hire someone. My guest this week, founder Nathan Hirsch, specializes in helping entrepreneurs find the right team to take their company to the next level.

You’ll learn where to find the diamonds in the rough and avoid the horror stories that scared you away from hiring in the past. And, by the way, we’re not talking about full-time, in-office employees. This is outsourcing – but not like you’ve ever seen.

It’s time to get your hours back and focus on the parts of the business you love.

Listen to our conversation to find out how to…

  • Hire people who are more talented than you
  • Turn the weaknesses of your business into strengths
  • Avoid the #1 reason freelancers fail
  • Form productive working relationships with an outsourced team
  • Follow the 3 pillars of working effectively with remote workers
  • And more

Listen now to Steve Gordon and Nathan Hirsch


00:11 Today Steve speaks with Nathan Hirsch, an entrepreneur, an expert in remote hiring and e-commerce and CEO of

01:23 Nathan needed more beer more in college so he started his first business in selling books online.

05:19 Nathan explains how he vets the people working on Freeeup.

06:47 Nathan explains scaling up and how when he didn’t hire people he got destroyed during a busy period.

08:55 Nathan talks about the motivating factors in getting the most out workers on his site.

11:15 Nathan explains his hiring process.

13:41 Nathan gives us some scenarios as to the different types of freelancers out there and how he works or will not work with them.

17:35 Nathan tells us how you can move your workload to hired help on Freeeup.

21:30 Nathan gives us an in-depth explanation of the Freeeup vetting process and how attitud and communication are the most important traits.

25:48 Nathan explains the difference between the traditional staff employee and having a freelance staff.

28:09 Nathan tells us how to start on Freeeup and how to get in contact with him and what is the average type of person who uses the site.

Mentioned in the show

Jordan Harbinger | How to Rebuild a Business Using Your Network


Many people think they know what good networking looks like. But Jordan Harbinger maintains that most approach this vital business tool all wrong, don’t do it enough, and don’t have the right goals in mind.

Jordan recently discovered the real value of his network, when he suddenly separated from his partners and the podcast he started and built to a top podcast--The Art of Charm.

Jordan, now the host of The Jordan Harbinger Show, quickly found the reality of the quip "you'll discover who your friends really are" (and what he discovered will surprise you).

Jordan is an expert in social influence. Over the years, he’s discovered how to form effective business relationships that lead to a financial payoff – often in a way you never expect.

If you’ve always shied away from networking or felt it didn’t work, you need to listen to this interview. Jordan has proven strategies for anybody in any industry to build “social capital” you can call on to grow your business. And his story will inspire you to build (or strenthen) your relationships today.

You’ll also discover…

  • Why you’re never “ready” to start networking – so do it now
  • The reasons you shouldn’t keep score when you’re networking
  • The key to overcoming the awkwardness of networking
  • Ways to turn your network into your business development army
  • The power of the double opt-in introduction
  • The ABG Rule for building business relationships
  • And so much more...

Listen to Steve Gordon and Jordan Harbinger

Jordan Harbinger | How to Rebuild a Business Using Your Network

I'm excited to be here with Jordan Harbinger. Jordan is an icon of the podcasting industry and if you hadn't heard of him yet, this is an absolute treat. Jordan always had an affinity for social influence, for interpersonal dynamics and social engineering. He's helped private companies test the security of their communication systems and worked with law enforcement agencies and been doing that since before he could drive. He spent years abroad in Europe, the developing world, South America, Eastern Europe, all over the place. He learned to speak several different languages, worked in all kinds of governments and NGOs and even been kidnapped twice. Maybe he'll tell us how that happened. He'll tell you that the real reason that he's still here and alive and kicking is because of his ability to talk his way into and out of just about any situation. Hopefully, you won't have to talk your way out of this situation, Jordan, welcome.

Thanks for having me. I appreciate the opportunity.

I'm absolutely thrilled to have you. Why don't you just take a couple of minutes? We've been through your bio, but why don't you give everybody a little bit of context for what got you to this stage of your career.

When I was younger, I went through school. I was one of those guys that was like, “I'm just going to teach myself geometry on the geometry exam.” Then I realized that there were a lot of smart kids in my high school, so I had to work a little harder. I got to college, I realized everybody was smart, but everybody was drinking a lot. I couldn't outsmart everyone, but I could probably just outwork them by working a little and not drinking a lot or just working a little. I outworked every one and I got to law school and everybody was smart and hard worker, so I just said, “Can't get smarter in a short period of time, can outwork everyone.” I went from being the guy who just studies sometimes to the guy who studies sixteen hours a day, six to seven days a week.

When I got to Wall Street as an attorney, everybody was smart, everybody worked twenty hours a day and I went, “I'm going to get fired. They're going figure out I don't belong here and I'm going to get fired,” and that's called impostor syndrome. Back then it was called reality. Impostor syndrome for me was scary because I thought this is what's going to happen, they're going to figure me out and then I'm in trouble and I'm not going to have a career and all kinds of catastrophes are going to happen as a result. That was scary for me. Whenever you're in law school, by the way, there's all these urban legends, and it was, “Did you hear about the girl that didn't want to do any of the work they were giving her, so she worked from home for four years and all she did was read Tom Clancy novels and then they eventually fired her. Four years, she collected a salary. It's unbelievable.” I went, “I'm not trying to scan my law firm, but I would love it if they didn't notice me and it gave me a lot of time to figure out what the hell was going on over here. Then by the time I have a clue what's happening, I'll be useful enough that they won't want to fire me.” Sounds like a plan, perfect, let's do this.

 It's better to have the relationships beforehand.

It's better to have the relationships beforehand.

How do I work from home? That's a good challenge. I don't just stop showing up. That's not going to work, so there was this partner named Dave and he had been the one who hired me. Dave was never in the office and I thought, “Dave must know how to work from home because he's never here. He's obviously just working from home because we're lawyers. We bill hours, we bill hours in six minute increments.” I asked him to meet with me and HR made him do that because he was my mentor, so he had to check a box on a form somewhere, so he took me. It was funny because everybody else who's getting mentored was going to see Blue Man Group and going to McCormick & Schmick for lunch and having drinks. He took me to the basement of our office building where there was a pop-up Starbucks and he's like, “Ask me whatever you want.” He wasn't a mean or rude guy, but he had important things to do and I was not one of those things most likely and he was right. I said, “How come you are a partner and everyone says you're this great partner and everything like that, but you never are in the office? What's going on?” He said, “People talk about that? They notice I'm not in the office?” I was backtracking because I'm thinking “I'm going to get fired at Starbucks. This is how my career ends?” I try to go off the radar and I ended up getting so far on the radar that now I'm going to get fired at Starbucks.

He puts his Blackberry down and he goes, “No, I work from home sometimes, but what I do is I focus on bringing in the deals.” I said, “How do I do that?” He went “After you worked here for long enough and you make enough connections with all the people in the industry and the investment bankers that are our clients, you play enough golf, you do enough jujitsu, you go on charity dinners, and you're friends with all these guys, you're playing racquetball, you're playing squash, you just become friends with them and they'll throw you the deals. You don't have to worry about it.” I went, “Wait a minute, you just told me a million things I'm not doing and then said ‘You don't have to worry about it.’ What are you talking about? I don't know how to do any of those things.” I'm thinking I don't know how to play squash; I better learn how to play squash, but what he was telling me was I form a bunch of relationships. I'm more valuable outside the firm that I am inside the firm because inside the firm, he can probably bill $800 an hour or $1,000 an hour as a partner. Outside the firm, he can bring in a million-dollar law deal once or twice a quarter, so his billable hour bonus, which is probably at a partner level, six figures or close to it, is nothing compared to the 5% he's getting bringing in a million dollar law deal every once a quarter.

Why worry about billable hours when you can go do jujitsu, play golf, play squash and then go, “Bill, send me that memorandum about the real estate transaction we're doing or the mortgage bank security pool that we're doing for Lehman Brothers or Bear Stearns.” That's a lot easier. Instead of figuring out how to work from home so I don't get caught, don't get fired, after that point, I dedicated my life to “There's another competitive advantage that I can build after having lost my other two, which were natural smarts and work ethic.” Those are both very limited but networking or relationship development was brand new. It was unlimited and even better, nobody else was thinking about it. All those junior level or mid level associates, all they were doing was grinding, which is what you have to do at a law firm, especially when you're new: billable hours, billable hours, billable hours. I went, “I'm going to do that, but if I start to figure out how to network and create relationships now, then in five years when I need this skill set, I'll have a five-year advantage on all these socially awkward colleagues that I have who are not ready for this.”

I had some great colleagues that were very social and I asked them about this and they went, “Just work here long enough and we meet enough people that eventually we start making deals and we'll start to make business.” We called it rainmaking back then. They go, “We should figure this out.” Me and this group of guys who were always going out for drinks, we went “We just got to figure out how to make friends with investment bankers.” We made huge spreadsheets of who'd we go to school with? Who do we know? What I know now is that we were proactively and very deliberately creating relationships, networking and creating social capital. I thought that was going to get me to the top of the law game but what it did was take me down this path of learning about nonverbal communication, persuasion, influence, networking, and relationship development, which is far more interesting to me than law ever was.

I can imagine that it would be. First of all, it's useful in every situation. Anytime you are around another human being, you can use those skills and it's always different. My background is engineering and one of the ways that I escape the pile in engineering is very similar. I learned to interact with other human beings, whereas most engineers don't like to do that. Fantastic insight, but I think it's one of the most important competitive advantages that exists. It never goes away because most people won't do it. Why do you think that is?

There are a couple of reasons. When I go to companies and law firms and speeches and things like that, what's happening for me is people say, "Okay, but.” Here's the entrepreneur pool, “I need to get my prototype going. I need to get my website going. I need to get my product launch formula ready with my team. Insert excuse here that sounds very, very, very convincing. Of course, I need a business set up before I can create relationships.” Actually it's better to have the relationships beforehand. “Yeah, but I have no value to give because I don't have any income or any money or anything.” It doesn't matter. That's not how we're creating relationships. If I go to a company like Apple, people there go, “Yeah, but I'm so busy,” or “I know the people in my work unit and I'm not planning on leaving my work unit or my department,” or “We're not allowed to talk to people from other companies because of trade secret stuff and they're worried about that.” All of it is baloney. You go to an engineering firm and here's where you get truthful answers. The scientists and the engineers at biotech firms, they go, “That sounds incredibly awkward and uncomfortable. I do not want to do that.”

 The best time to dig this well is before you're thirsty, and the best way to do that is to create relationships before you need them.

The best time to dig this well is before you're thirsty, and the best way to do that is to create relationships before you need them.

It took me a long time to figure out that that was an honest answer. The other answers I was getting were very convincing lies we tell ourselves when pretty much everyone is just going, “I don't know how to start those types of conversations. I don't know how to maintain relationships. I'm deprioritizing this because not only is it awkward, I don't see what I can get from it right away.” They have a fundamental misunderstanding of how relationships work, which I did too in the beginning. I was thinking, “I work at this law firm for eight years, I become a partner because I put in the time then, country club and I know everyone and I networked.” That is the opposite of how these things happen for most of us. What works is you work your butt off, you build a ton of relationships. Management loves you because you're bringing in business. You recruited a couple of new associates. You are on this other project because the managing partner of that firm knew you and asked for you by name and you went to school with a couple other people on the team. They recruited you for this other high profile deal that's getting closed because they remember you from Michigan or Michigan Law or whatever.

They have to make you a partner because you're the one who knows everybody. It's not you make partner and then, networking. That can happen. What's better is if they decide, “We can't afford to let this Jordan guy go. If he gets a better offer somewhere else and we don't make him a partner, he could take his book of business with him and those guys have been worth $8 million over the last eight years. It doesn't mean we're going to lose them, but do we want to risk even losing one deal because he brought it to a different firm? Or do we want to just make this guy a junior partner and not worry about it?” I think the answer's pretty clear. That's how you get ahead in this. You dig the well before you're thirsty and you create a lot of relationships before you need them, so that if there ever comes a time when you do need them, you can call upon them and you have them there ready for you.

Asking for a favor when you don't have a relationship is like asking for a spare tire to be put in the trunk of your car after you get a flat. It's just not good timing. You know this from sales and recruiting and things, the best time to get a new job is when you already have a job, especially if that job is going well for you. If you're in sales and you can say, “Last year I closed $3.9 million worth of color copier machine sales.” That's a great time to go and ask for a raise or get an offer from another company in the same niche. It's not a good time if you go, “I got fired last year and I've been living off my savings and things are a little tight and I was hoping you guys could get me in the door.” That's a terrible time to ask for something. The best time to dig this well is before you're thirsty, and the best way to do that is to create relationships before you need them.

That's great advice and you hear it all the time. Very few people in my experience actually act on it. I don't know if the audience is aware, but you're going through something where that little piece of advice you gave is important for you because of this transition that you're going through it. I'm going to guess that because you've dug the well, this transition is going to go a lot better than it would for a lot of people. As you're saying it, does that advice ring a bell in your head, like, “I'm so glad I've focused on that all these years.”?

I cannot even begin to tell you how important this has been for me. What's happening essentially, just to give everybody a little bit of background, is I ran a show and I founded a company called the Art of Charm. It was about social skills and dating and stuff like that. I did that for eleven years. I negotiated an amicable split because I got tired of being branded as some dating guy when I'm married. I'm interviewing all these amazing people on the podcast and it just was not a good brand for me. I negotiated an amicable split. That deal fell apart for various reasons which I will not get into here because it doesn't matter anyway. I found myself saying, “I could probably file a lawsuit and I might even prevail. However, I'm going to end up with an Xbox and a bicycle at the end of it, or I'm going to take the rest of the team that is no longer working with the company and create something new, but I'm going to have to create it using only the skill set that I have and the team that I have and low resources and probably start without an income and just have my relationships. It was scary. You watch ESPN and you see these athletes and they go, “You find out who your friends are.” I'm like, “That doesn't mean that you find out how great everyone is.”

It means that nobody cares about you because you don't have your money or your platform or whatever it is. You see guys like MC Hammer who was popular in ’93. Everyone left me and I'm sleeping in my car,” and you're just thinking like, “No.” I was worried about that. I started to reach out. After freaking out, the second thing I did was make a list of people that I knew I could reach out to that I was just sure we're going to say yes. Because I was thinking my ego is not going to like it if I get rejected too many times while I'm already down. I can only take so many kicks while I'm already down. I reached out to friends. They were like, “Of course, we'll help you. We can't wait.” That gave me a little boost and then I made another list of hundreds of other people that I've reached out to and I am reaching out to and a lot of my friends are introducing me to people like you as well. It just immediately exploded into this opportunity of “I am finding out who my friends are.” My friends are so numerous that I had no idea and then their friends are cool and then their friends of friends are great people, and their friends of friends of friends. I have so many opportunities coming my way that I'm super thankful.

 Management loves you because you're bringing in business

Management loves you because you're bringing in business

The Jordan Harbinger Show that I run is a couple of weeks old as of this recording and has about a million downloads. Bear in mind, I didn't leave with the email list. I didn't leave with the social media. I didn't leave with the website. I didn't leave with the show feed. I left with my relationships, my name, my skill set, and my team, which does not include paid advertising. My team is production, technical, and web. This is not something that happened as a result of some magic trick or me going, “I'll just pay a million dollars and get my followers back.” That's not an option. This is all from going on other shows, having influence or say, “Jordan is now at The Jordan Harbinger Show. He left this other company. That's brought a huge number of fans back and also gotten me a huge number of new fans in just a few short weeks, and so I spent years and years giving and helping other people without the expectation of anything in return, not keeping score, not expecting anything. The irony or maybe the funny twist on that is I believed that I would never need anything in return. I was not thinking “One day I'm going to get shit canned and it's going to be terrible and I'm going have to call everyone.” No, I was just thinking, “This is a good way to live. I like it. Everyone thinks I'm a nice guy and it's easy to help people.” It's like, “I'm glad I did that.” Because had I ignored that, had I thought “I'm a big shot, look at me, I run an iTunes top 10 podcasts, I don't care. I don't have to help people. I'm a big deal around here. I've got 300,000 Twitter followers.”

That was not tempting because that's not how I roll, but I could see why somebody who's at the top of any industry would say, “I don't have to go to this conference and talk with these people. I don't have to reply to my fan mail. I don't have to reply to people who tweeted me on Twitter. It's a waste of time. I would rather watch Netflix.” I understand that, but I didn't do that. I answer all my email. I answer all my tweets. I go to all the conferences. If people want to talk to me after my speeches, I talk outside for two hours. I enjoy it and that was a lucky break because that consistent process over the last ten years, a lot of those people who I helped eight years ago via email, they remember me. The person who I spent three hours helping and answering their questions eight years ago outside a conference, they are a big deal now and they got 300,000 followers. They went, “Remember when you helped me with that thing,” and I go, “No, but I'm glad you do.”

That's what I've been leaning on and it's been magical. If somebody offered me a million dollars cash and said, “I'm going to give you this, you can keep your team. You can keep all your skills, but you can't keep your relationships, but it's going to help you rebuild your business. Here's a million dollars.” I would say, “No thanks.” I'd rather have the network that I have because I've probably gotten a million dollars in free exposure lined up over the next 90 days and people helping me out with things that I could never afford to pay them for for free just because I've known them and been nice to them in the past and helped them with other things.

Going back to your statement about you'll find out who your friends are. I actually think you find out who you have relationship with. You may have people that are hanging around you that are there because of something that they get from you, whether it's money or status or whatever. You mentioned athletes, a lot of the athletes and entertainers get into that because people are attracted to a tremendous amount of money and fame and all that thing. You do find very quickly you don't have relationship there. What you're finding is that because it wasn't built on all of that, it was actually built on real human depth and relationship that you've got something to lean on and you've got something of value. You said “I didn't just do it thinking I was going to get something out of it. I'm doing it because I just like to be nice to people.” For the audience, it's that simple. It realty is. Everybody is out there looking for the hack. How do I build a network like Jordan has? There's no hack.

I do have a couple of principles though that we could talk about that are useful that are mindsets or mental models. The first thing that I would say is me before I met Dave and thought I was going to get fired, I always thought networking was about a secret club. I'm going to some great school, “I went to Yale, so I know important people.” That's how I thought it was or you're born into it. “My dad's a big deal. He knows the mayor,” so you're well-connected now. I thought that's what it was, but your network is your business development army. You can create it faster because like the tortoise and the hare, if you remember that fable, there are people that are born into a network and it is something to be coveted and admired.

 Your network is your business development army

Your network is your business development army

One of my close friends, he's just American royalty. His great, great, grand uncle is Paul Revere literally. I found that out because I went to his house where his parents were and I went “Why do you have a giant painting of Paul Revere? You guys are so weird,” and his wife, who's a good friend of mine was like, “They are related,” and he was like, “My parents have weird stuff.” He didn't talk about it because he didn't need to, but his wife was like, “He is his uncle.” This is a guy who was well connected as hell. His family knows everybody. They own a freaking island and I thought, “I'm never going be able to do that. I'm never going to compete with this guy in any arena. There's just no way.” I started focusing on these skills and everything over the last ten years, and I realized like the tortoise and the hare people who are born into it, it's not that they're lazy, but they're coasting. They've never had to think about how to make connections. They've never needed to. Their grandpa just sends an email or goes golfing with the CEO of whatever company you want to work for and you got everything you want. That's how it happened. Luckily he turned out well, but I think a lot of people in this situation wouldn't. The problem is, when those connect doors out of your life go away, they pass away or they retire or whatever, you're out of luck.

For me, I've got to grind so hard to get even 1% of what they've got as a network, so I ran that race. I ran that race or walked it as the tortoise has in the parable. While the hare takes a nap, I realized, “I'm at the finish line.” I've got a huge network. It's not the finish line per se in our story, but I've got a huge network and all these people that we're coasting that looked so well connected, they have no idea how to do this for themselves. You have to learn it because if you're ignoring this, you're not immune to the consequences. You're just being willfully ignorant of this secret game being played around you. If you're at an engineering firm or a small business, you're in trouble if you think, “I'll focus on this later.” Because somebody at your level or below is thinking about it now and they're doing a good job at it and you're going to go, “How the hell did that kid I hired four years ago ended up my boss? How did that happen?” Or “How come I didn't get that project? I'm a better fill in the blank than so and so who did. It's all about who you know. I hate life.” People should be saying that about you, “This guy knows everybody. Of course he got the good deal, project, position, promotion.” That should be you, not you whining about how things are unfair. That's the first set of rules, digging the well before you're thirsty.

Have you ever seen Glengarry Glen Ross where he's like “Always be closing.” That's ABC, Always Be Closing. The rule that we teach on The Jordan Harbinger Show would be ABG, Always Be Giving. Always help other people without the expectation of anything in return. The reason that that's important is because it's just a great way to live and will make you feel good. Nobody cares about that right now, we're trying to figure out what's in it for me. Help other people without the expectation of anything in return. It doesn't mean that you have to be the sucker who gets walked on and always turning the other cheek. What this means, and the reason this is functional is because you can't see the opportunities that are over the horizon. If I'm a graphic designer, which I'm not, and I'm only looking for people who need graphic designer who can help me find people who need graphic design, then I'm not going to help you with your podcast audio setup, even though I know a guy who can help you with that. Because no, I just need to make graphic design, “Steve, do you need a website?” “No.” Alright, next. “John, do you need a website?” “No.” All right, next.

The way you do this because you say, “You've got a podcast. I happen to know this guy who's got a large following. I don't know if you guys want to connect, but he talks about engineers and how they can work better in the office and it might be a good fit for your show.” “Sure.” I'm connecting you two. I've helped two people without the expectation of anything in return and I did it in a scalable way. Because people go, “I don't have time to help tons of people. I'm trying to get my own stuff off the ground, Jordan. Come on, man. This is a luxury. I can't afford to waste any time doing this.” You can't afford to waste time giving people free graphic design help all day, but what you can afford to do is make one introduction every week, every day if you can, but every week. Introduce two people, now you've got two token units, whatever you want to call it, a social capital where they both go, “That was a good intro. Thanks for that. I appreciate that.”

You do it in the following way. You do the double opt-in. The double opt-in is when I say, “Steve, do you want an intro to this guy? He does financial planning for professional athletes and since you're a professional athlete, I figured you might want that intro.” You say, “Sure, I'll take it,” and I go “Great.” Then I speak to the financial planner and I say, “I got an athlete for you if you're interested.” He says, “Of course, thank you.” Then I make the intro. The reason I don't just say, “Surprise. Here's an introduction,” is because a lot of things can happen that might make it awkward where the athlete goes, “This guy emails me every week. He's so annoying and now he's in my Inbox from a friend. I can't ignore it. That's awkward for me.” Or the other person says, “I would love that intro, but I am slammed and I've got a kid who's sick. Do it in three weeks, and then I'll be able to reply and I won't look like an idiot for having this thing get lost in my Inbox. He's going to get an auto-responder that says I'm on vacation.”

 Always be giving, always do the double opt-in and make it scalable by creating email introductions

Always be giving, always do the double opt-in and make it scalable by creating email introductions

There're all kinds of things that can happen. If you get the double opt-in, you get commitment just at a tiny level from each person and then it doesn't fail. The introduction is successful every time. If one person says no, you can just say, “It's not a good time for that, but I'm going to do it later on,” and then nobody goes, “What a jerk.” They just think “I appreciate the offer.” That's the double opt‑in and it's important. Don't skip it. It takes extra two minutes per introduction if that. It will make your introductions go smoothly, it will make you look professional. People will appreciate it. They will always take an introduction from you because they know you're not going to throw them under the bus and make it weird. Always be giving, always do the double opt-in and make it scalable by creating email introductions that are using the double opt-in, not just doing free work.


Jordan just shared a fantastic couple of principles, two ideas for how to go out and build your network. You were talking about making these connections which is real practical advice. One of the things that people get hung up on is they feel like they need to make a super relevant connection. In other words, it's almost got to be like a business referral and I always think that puts too much onto it. Most people are out there looking for connection with other humans anyway, particularly in business, and it doesn't necessarily have to be that bulls eye that, “Here’s your next million dollar deal.” What are some of the things that you look for as you're thinking about who to connect? How do you think about this person would be a great match with this one?

When I'm thinking about who to connect the double opt-in, first of all, will help with this but what I'm thinking is, “This person started a new podcast. What I should do is connect them with people I think might be able to help them.” Or this person just said, “I'm in the cryptocurrency,” and I say, “How are you going to do your taxes?” and they go, “I have no idea. I don't even know. I have to pay taxes because I don't want to go to jail, but I have no clue.” I go, “I happen to know a CPA who specializes now in this and his client roster is filling up quick, but you might want to talk to him.” Of course, that guy wants more clients, so I might even have a standing opt-in where it's like “Anytime you want to introduce a potential client, just go ahead and do it. You don't have to ask me,” but I'll always ask the other person of course. I'm looking for an obvious win and an obvious fit because I'm not trying to stretch it too much, but people might be surprised at what a fit actually means. Because there's tons of people where you can say, “There's this person who lives in your area and they raise chickens and they sell eggs online that are somehow special.” You're both entrepreneurs and you both live in Northern California and he's in your area a lot because he sells eggs to the stores near you, so you guys might want to meet up at some point just because you're both good people.” That's okay. It's not a great intro but it's okay. It's not a bad idea to do something like that.

That said, there's a lot of introductions that I've made where it's just, “You guys would get along because Jordan does interviews with crazy people and you help authors get their books done, so you know a ton of authors and Jordan interviews a ton of authors. I don't have anything specific in mind for you guys, but you guys should just know each other.” That's a worthwhile introduction. It doesn't mean, “I hired this guy and now we're doing a business joint venture together. This is a great intro.” Thanks. If that works for you, perfect, but you're not looking for magic here. You're not playing matchmaker at the highest level. You're just trying to connect people who might have some interest in meeting. I would avoid stretching it too far. If it's just this person's cool and you're cool, you should totally meet. If they live close, great but I'd rather just meet them the next time you're in town and we'll all meet. Because I don't know about you, but I'm busy and so I don't want to meet up with people. I have a lot of friends. I'm always down to make more friends, but it's going to be tough for me to take off a Thursday afternoon and just go, “Noah said you were nice. I'm spending half my work day talking with you for no reason.” It's not going to work.

Look for people who have a business reason generally to meet or for people where you just go, “No, trust me, you guys are going to love each other. Just trust me.” If you feel strongly, go for it, but chances are it's got to be something for business. It doesn't have to be, “You guys are going to find the next Uber.” It can be this person knows people that you might need to connect with later. The end. That's all you need. They'll figure the rest out on their own. You're not responsible for managing their relationship after the introduction is done.

There's no way. It's just not scalable if you try to be at every meeting and facilitate the connection and all of that, you can only do what you can do. One of the most valuable things that you can share with people is the connection that you have with others that they don't know. A fundamental survival mechanism that we have as humans that separates us from everything else crawling around the planet is that we've got this ability to see the capabilities and resources of the other people around us and see the need on the other side and make those connections. We do that uniquely through language. It's one of those things that we don't use nearly enough. I'm so thankful that you've spent some time laying that out.

I want to make sure that we get people to your new show. I'd love for you to talk a little bit about the new show. I've been listening to it. It's fantastic. Whenever I listen to somebody who's been doing this for a long time, I learn just how much there is for me yet to learn about podcasting, so I'm going to school on it, but where can they find you? What will they find when they get there? Give us a rundown.

On The Jordan Harbinger Show, I'm taking the last eleven years of knowledge, experience, and relationships where essentially I study the thoughts, the actions, the habits, and the mental models of brilliant people and then try always successfully transfer that knowledge to the audience so they can apply that wisdom for themselves. Essentially I'll take someone’s superpower and then transfer that and teach that to the audience. Every episode has worksheets. It's not just, “I feel so inspired now.” It's like “No, here are three things you can now do that you could not do before the show.” That's why when I come on shows like yours, I try to be very practical. We talked about always be giving, digging the well before you're thirsty, not keeping score, how to do the double opt-in.

 Look for people who have a business reason generally to meet

Look for people who have a business reason generally to meet

I want to change people's behavior, not just show them what's possible in their life or something nebulous like that. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, that's what we're aiming for, so every person that comes on is teaching something practical and we're getting ideally a great and entertaining interview out of them as well. That's what people can expect there. I feel strongly that every minute of the audience’s attention has to be earned or they're just going to bounce and do something else because there's too much out there. My team and have to create the best show, otherwise somebody who does is going to steal all of our mojo, so we're always on the grind,

You do a fantastic job of it. Where should they go and find you? What's the best place for them to find the show?

In any podcast player, just search for The Jordan Harbinger Show or you can go to and there are plenty of ways to listen there as well.

Honestly, it's at the top of my list on my podcast player on my iPhone. The interviews are really good, the resources that you put along with it are fantastic. It's absolutely a great show. Thank you so much for investing some time with me and with our audience. This has been a lot of fun and I'm glad we had a chance to meet.

Thanks for the opportunity.

About Jordan Harbinger

Harbinger Jordan web 2017.jpg

Jordan Harbinger, once referred to as “The Larry King of podcasting,” is a Wall Street lawyer turned talk show host, social dynamics expert, and entrepreneur.

After hosting a top 50 iTunes podcast for over a decade that enjoyed nearly four million downloads a month at its zenith, Jordan has embarked on a new adventure: The Jordan Harbinger Show, where he deconstructs the playbooks of the most successful people on earth and shares their strategies, perspectives, and insights with the rest of us.

Jordan’s business sense, extensive knowledge of the industry, and contemporary approach to teaching make him one of the best and most sought-after coaches in the world.

Jordan Harbinger has always had an affinity for social influence, interpersonal dynamics, and social engineering, helping private companies test the security of their communications systems and working with law enforcement agencies before he was even old enough to drive.

Jordan spent several years abroad in Europe and the developing world, including South America, Eastern Europe, and the Middle East, and he speaks five languages. He has also worked for various governments and NGOs overseas, traveled through war zones, and been kidnapped — twice. He’ll tell you the only reason he’s still alive and kicking is because of his ability to talk his way into (and out of) just about any type of situation.

Mentioned in the Show

Bradley Callow | How to Raise Great Kids (even with an entrepreneur’s schedule)


If you’ve ever been concerned that your home life suffers because of your business – and who hasn’t – you’ll want to listen in to what Bradley Callow has to say.

With his Rich Legacy organization, Bradley specializes in empowering families to not just have better relationships but also ensure that kids avoid the pitfalls of adolescence in today’s world.

Bradley’s own troubled past inspired him to take on this mission. And you’ll be surprised how he sees many parents today actually unknowingly sabotaging their children’s future. He’s got plenty of strategies for avoiding that fate too.

He even offered his personal cell number – you can text him to schedule a free coaching call.

You’ll have to listen to the end for that. Along the way you’ll discover…

  • Work/Life Balance is impossible – and what to do instead
  • How to be “intentional” with your family time
  • Why hardship and failure are vital for personal growth
  • Ways to “plan” your family like you do your business
  • Tips for changing kids’ behaviors now so it doesn’t become a lifelong issue
  • And even more...

Listen to Steve Gordon and Bradley Callow now:

Bradley Callow | How to Raise Great Kids (even with an entrepreneur’s schedule)

I'm excited to be speaking with Bradley Callow. Bradley is revolutionizing the way affluent families teach and learn passionate performance and perseverance. This is going to be a different interview than what we've done before, but it's going to be powerful. For all of us who run businesses, one of the big casualty sometimes is our family relationships, and that is Bradley’s specialty. He came from an affluent family and went through some difficult times. He learned a great deal through that and has created a program called Rich Legacy to help families and help parents and children in particular communicate better with one another. Bradley, I'm excited to have you here. I'm personally interested in this because we've got four kids and so I'm hoping to learn something here. Welcome to the Unstoppable CEO.

Thanks for having me, Steve. I love your choice of language there, that the family can be a casualty of success in the world of business, especially as an entrepreneur where you constantly have to sacrifice. This notion of work-life balance is laughable. You show me anyone that has a perfect work-life balance. It doesn't exist. We call it work-life integration. How do you get intentional about the time you do spend? Thankfully, the actual data shows that it's not about the quantity of time that you spend with your family. It's about the quality of time.

I'm in complete agreement. I don't think there is any such thing as balance. For people running a business, integration is a perfect word because you do have to integrate both sides of your life. You are intertwined in the business and intertwined and family. We're going to learn a lot today. To give everybody some context, what is it that got you to this point and focusing on this as a topic?

I was a perfect angel that came from a perfect family and had nothing but a 4.0 and all the awards and accolades that any parent and child could ask for. In reality, that wasn't my story. My story was much darker than that, despite coming from a good family as you said. My mom was a stay at home mom. She used to be a special ed teacher, an educator. These are parents that are intentional in what they were doing with their family. Still, despite that, I started using drugs at eleven years old. Not twelve, not thirteen, not fourteen, certainly not seventeen, eighteen, nineteen. I was eleven years old. I always have people say to me, “What do you mean your parents didn't know you're on drugs at eleven years old?”My simple response to that is, “When was the last time you looked an eleven-year-old in the eye and said, ‘Their eyes are a little red. I bet they’re on drugs?’” It doesn't happen because the constant mentality is, “Not my kid.” I've heard that a thousand times. No one wants to believe, my parents included, that their kid's struggling or would do something like this. For me, I started using drugs at eleven. I'm an entrepreneur with every fiber of my being. I didn't know what entrepreneurship was despite my dad being one. I didn't understand and appreciate it. I started having these ideas about how I could make money off this if I sold this to my friends. The first business I ever had was selling drugs. That was my first entrepreneurial pursuit.

 It's not about the quantity of time that you spend with your family. It's about the quality of time.

It's not about the quantity of time that you spend with your family. It's about the quality of time.

Through my own drug use and the selling of drugs, despite that, I kept up pretty good appearances. I managed to make my way through high school, get decent enough grades to get into a college, and went to the University of South Carolina. Within a month of turning eighteen and being in college, I was arrested for felony distribution. They caught me selling marijuana, enough so that I was then a felon from that point on in my life, not the way you want to enter into the world of work and certainly not what my parents would have ever hoped or wanted for me. As a result of that, I thankfully was given another chance and was only suspended from school and went back with something to prove. I did well for a little while but ultimately fell back into old behaviors. By the time I was 26 and out of college, I explored entrepreneurship quite a bit as well as software sales, digital media sales, and had a lot of success. I still didn't think I was good enough. I always felt I was less than, and no matter what I could do in my life, I wasn't good enough. I felt empty. I felt this burning hole inside of me, which in some ways motivates me still. I've closed that hole tremendously, but there's still a bit of that that motivates me. A lot of entrepreneurs I talk to and work with share that same feeling of “I'm not good enough and I'm going to prove that I am.” That voice for me came from my father who was an entrepreneur. A very analytical man, a very much left brain and his way of showing me love was with positive intent that he was doing these things. He was always looking to show me the right way to do things. There was always a better, smarter, more sophisticated, effective, efficient way to get things done.

I like to use the example when I was five years old. I'm washing the dishes and I am thrilled. I'm excited. I'm on my little stool. This little brown hair, blue eyed boy, smiling ear to ear, bubbles flying everywhere and dad comes in, tall, skinny, focused, serious look on his face and he says, “Son, that's awesome. That's cool what you're doing. I got to tell you it's the friction of the brush that gets the food off the plate. You running the water on full blast and using hot water, it's a waste of money, electricity and energy. To a five-year-old, you can imagine this little brown haired, blue eyed boy falling under the weight of himself. That was a continuing pattern. Despite my dad showing up in lots of meaningful ways in my life and still to this day is my hero, some of those little things that he or my mom did, the community that I grew up in, ultimately led me in the wrong direction. It didn't set me up for success. It set me up for a life of torture and self-torture more often than not. I was responsible for so much of my own pain, discomfort, and hardship. By the time I turned 26, I found myself on my knees, with a 1911.45 caliber handgun pressed to the side of my temple. Sometimes it's easier to talk about than others. I still to this day don't know why I didn't pull the trigger. I'd like to think it's when you think of the token saying, “I was meant for bigger things. God and the universe had a plan for me,” but I don't know. At the end of the day, I don't know. I'm grateful that I didn't.

When I hear that the adolescent suicide rate has quadrupled since 1950and the greatest increases are coming in the affluent demographic, I started to pay attention. I became a student of what it is that are happening in these families that are leading all these kids to not be able to deal with uncomfortable emotions. At the end of the day, that's what it is. I'm not trying to eliminate pain from people's experience because pain exists everywhere. Looking at the title of your podcast, I am such a believer that the greatest hardship, discomfort, and failures is what gives us our grit. It’s what gives us our edge. It’s what gives us growth and excitement in life. I'm not trying to remove everyone's pain. I'm trying to teach them a better way to deal with it. How do you take that pain and make it an opportunity versus an end all to be all?

Thank you for sharing the story. It takes courage to share a story. The pain that we all experience at whatever stage in our life, whether it's great pain or small pain, is a great teacher. It's hard to see that sometimes. I'm 46, soon to be 47 years old. It's taken me 40 plus years to understand that. It took going through some challenging things, not nearly what you've been through, to understand the role that that plays. At a young age, it's something you want to run from. I look at it and go, “This is preparing me for something. There's something here that I need to learn. I'm either exhibiting a behavior that isn't in alignment with what I'm trying to do or I'm getting prepared for something to come. Either way, I better pay attention.” I didn't always approach it that way. Particularly for children, it paints something you want to run away from.

It takes time and firsthand experience. Over time, you build up that resilience and that grit. You start to look at problems and challenges differently. You're saying it took you decades to solidify and own this. One of the patterns that have become so clear and ever present in the high-performing families that I work with all over the world are that they tend to shelter their children. You've heard the concept of helicopter parents. I wrote an article, I haven't put it out yet, on bubble parenting, which we've gone even farther. Instead of hovering over the kids and trying to protect them, “Let's literally insulate them from having to experience discomfort. That will allow them to get into college. That will allow them to get good grades. That'll allow them to be successful and happy. If I protect them, that’s what will allow them to experience those things.”

 The greatest hardship, discomfort and failure is what gives us our grit

The greatest hardship, discomfort and failure is what gives us our grit

You and I know that's not reality. In fact, it's the opposite. It's the gritty kids, the gritty human beings, the resilient and persistent ones that are successful and happy to find that purpose and that passion, that perseverance in life. The kids are being denied that opportunity to learn through hardship and discomfort while they're still under the wing of the parents. They go off to college and they implode. They don't know what to do with themselves. I'm going to start a business on doing laundry for college freshmen and retire next year. It's unbelievable and the intention is good. Look at the media, you have to be terrified to let your kid out of the house without knee pads, shin guards, a helmet and a reflective vest to walk to the bus because it looks like the sky is falling. The reality is if those kids aren't given that opportunity to learn that grit and resilience now, the likelihood they're going to learn it later or be able to manage those difficult emotions is unlikely.

We've got four kids. We've seen lots of parents and parenting styles and we're certainly not necessarily the best at it. Any parent will tell you it's always a work in progress. Some days, it's a better work than others. Having seen a lot of different parenting styles, the one thing that I've observed is that the kids who go through that protective experience from their parents get robbed of accomplishment because they're protected from everything. They don't get to fall down and pick themselves back up again. Oftentimes, that's masked by the fact that academically they’re achieving because they're given the right tutors and they're going through all this. They never get the chance to try something and not be good at it. It's interesting to watch that. All parents mess their kids up to one degree or another because there's no license and there is no training to become a parent. It happens. We all know how it happens. It happens and there you go and you've got kids. You've had this experience, but now you're working with families to help get things to a place where parents and kids are communicating. Talk about why you want to do that and what some of the challenges are in working with these families.

In terms of why, for me it ties back to my own story and my own journey. I see an opportunity to create some real change here and in generations to come if we can zero in and dial in this approach to empowering kids and empowering families. You picked up something earlier, talking about my use of language related to business. I do a lot of that, not because the people I work with tend to be executives and entrepreneurs, but because the parallels are unbelievable. You tell a spouse or your kids that you do things similar to the way you do in business and you'll probably get kicked in the shin real hard. The reality is that it's a good thing. It's harder than ever to be a parent or a child. The internet in all its glory has made things difficult because that gap and understanding that is age old for parent and child is so dramatically wad right now. If you grew up 30 or 40 years ago, that experience as a child is no longer relatable to an experience of a child today. For example, we have parents all the time who’ll say, “My kid came home and they said they didn't get enough likes on their Instagram post.” I said, “Big deal, get over it.” That's the most important thing that happened to that child that day. That would be the equivalent in your day of someone walking up to you and being like, “I don't want to be friends anymore,” and this was your best friend yesterday.

To be able to put yourself in that position is difficult because I personally don't have a family yet. I have a wife. We're looking to start a family in the next six months or so. As of right now I don't have kids. At first people would say, “I'm not listening to anything you have to say about parenting, family, or any of this stuff because you're not a parent.” I said, “Fine, don't listen to me.” What I serve is that bridge in that widening gap of understanding, that I can connect with a kid and understand that kid, and I can also connect with the parent and understand that parent. Not on that same level because I haven't had that personal experience, but now after working with thousands of families, I've got a pretty good idea.

At my age, I'm now 32, I grew up with technology and without it, with the internet and without it, and so I can bridge that gap. What I'm finding is in order to bridge that gap, you have to be very intentional and focused. It's not going to happen by accident. If I sit here and ask you, “Steve, what are your goals for your business for the next five years, three years, one year, next quarter?” You'll be like, “Hold on, Bradley. How much time do you have? Let me tell you my BHAG, my Big Hairy Audacious Goal. Let me tell you my more reasonable goals. Let me tell you my mission statement, my value state, you name it, how we run meetings, how we do budgeting. Here are the things I want to teach my employees to allow them to be better at what they do.” I'll ask you simultaneously, “What's the most important thing in your life?” “It's easy. My family.” What are your family values? What is your family mission statement? What are your goals for the next five years? How can we look at the parallels of business and family and start getting intentional and focused like we are with our businesses and with our families? Empowering these kids to be successful and happy, which is what virtually every parent wants, in this day and age is no longer going to happen by accident. You don't have that tribe. You don't have that community of people raising kids like you used to. If you're not getting intentional and focused, you're putting a lot at risk and taking a huge chance on something that is the most important thing in your life. My job is to open the eyes, hearts, and minds of those families so they can start getting intentional about those things.

 Empowering these kids to be successful and happy, which is what virtually every parent wants, in this day and age is no longer going to happen by accident.

Empowering these kids to be successful and happy, which is what virtually every parent wants, in this day and age is no longer going to happen by accident.

You used one of my favorite words, intentionality. You said we're so intentional in our businesses. We need to take some of that and bring it home and be intentional with how we're cultivating our family relationships. How do you coach people to create that intentionality? It's so easy to sit back and think, “It's my family. It's my kids. It's my wife. We hang out together. We live in this house together.” To insert intentionality, you have to take it to another level of consciousness of what you're doing. How do you get people to look at that? It’s like for a fish swimming in water, it’s the water sometimes.

It's more of a given. The things that are given in our life, we tend to take for granted, as sad as that is. We take breathing for granted all the time. It's pretty damn important. It’s the same with our family. Unfortunately a lot of people that come to work with us are on the verge of divorce or maybe recently remarried and want to be more intentional this time around or with a combination of the new family. Their kid was suspended. Their kid got into trouble at school. Whatever it may be, there's some pain that motivates and inspires them to take action, like most areas of our life. Unfortunately when something is a given, it might take even more of a pain and a discomfort to motivate people.

I so often hear people say, “My kids are too young for this. Things aren't that bad.” If I can communicate anything, it's the whole ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure. The older the kids get, the more challenging it gets to change some of these behaviors and trajectory. Those patterns and behaviors become more solidified. The sweet spot for us is that eight to thirteen range. We do father-son retreats. We're doing our first father-daughter retreat this summer. We also do private family retreats and private family coaching which is for the whole family. Our focus on that eight to thirteen for the father-son retreats is we'll do an eight to ten and then eleven to thirteen, and segment those out, ten fathers and sons each.

The magic that happens in those small intentional environments is unbelievable. It's about the quality of time, not the quantity of time. Thankfully, for a retreat type model that's built in with a lot of fun, we'd go to Park City Utah and you're doing whitewater rafting, hot air balloon rides and downhill ski jump into Olympic size pool in the middle of the summer. Those things are exciting and attractive enough that the secondary elements that we built in that are experiential to help be more intentional, focused and have a plan are okay. “I don't even care about that. I want to go have fun with my son,” but then they get those other benefits so then it doesn't fire that same amount of pain to motivate them. We're able to plant those seeds which have been huge for us.

Anytime you can create that interaction between a parent and a child, it's valuable. It's hard to do. We've got four of them and it's hard to do with each kid individually. Given their schedules, I don't know a child amongst our friend group anyway. You talk about coming from an affluent background and most everybody in our audience is probably in that situation where the kids in that demographic are scheduled. We did to them what we're living right now. To create those experiences together, it's difficult. It's fantastic that you're doing that. What can somebody expect if they come to your website? First, tell them where to go to get to the website. If they come to the website and they're looking for information, what can they expect when they get there? Where should they begin if they want to plug in to what you guys are doing?

 The older the kids get, the more challenging it gets to change some of these behaviors and trajectory

The older the kids get, the more challenging it gets to change some of these behaviors and trajectory

I'm going to do something a little different this time, Steve. I'm feeling inspired recently, more so than normal. I always joke I don't have an exit for my business because I'm so passionate about what I do. I could never imagine doing anything else, but like anything, that passion has waves to it. Right now, I'm riding a nice wave. That being said, I'm going to offer my cell phone number and your audience can reach out. Shoot me a text first please and we will schedule some time to hop on a call, twenty minutes or so. I will speak directly to the actual challenges that they are facing in their life. Anybody can reach out and we'll schedule a call. I'm happy to make the time to make that a reality. The phone number for me is 301-980-7511. All I ask is that you text me first so we can set up some time that makes sense for both of us.

That's generous. Thank you. I hope our audience takes advantage of it if you feel you've got a need. You've got a website, I know you run programs. Is that the best place for them to go to find out the breadth of what you do?

It is. Like any growing business, the website never seems to be up to date with what all the offerings are. I would say if you're a dad, I would check out and then you can check out a father-son retreat we’ll have. We have either three or five-day options for Park City, Utah. You can check that out or We've got eight ways you can improve your relationship with your son. We do things with the whole family. We've had a recent push towards father-son because there's been a tremendous amount of interest and demand for it.

It's a key relationship. That's fantastic. Bradley, thank you so much for investing some time with me. This has been a lot of fun. It’s certainly educational for me. I'm going to go back and hopefully apply a few of the things that I've learned to our kids and our relationships. Everybody go check this out. Take Bradley up on the offer. This is a big deal.

I would challenge everyone to go home and ask each one of your family members separately. That's the key. This is not a group setting. It’s very intentional. “How can I be a better husband? How can I be a better wife? How can I be a better father? What does that look like for you?”A lot of folks, their first response is going to be looking at you like you're crazy and, “I don't know, leave me alone,” or, “I have no idea,” but keep asking that. Once you get the answer to that question and start to get the answer to that question, it will evolve over time the more often you ask it. You will be amazed at some of the things that you can uncover and start working on. You either thought, “We’re already well or we’re going well,” and they feel the opposite, or you thought you were doing poorly and they think the world of the approaches you're already taking.

That's great advice. Thanks again. I appreciate you being here and look forward to connecting again soon.

Thanks, Steve.

About Bradley Callow


Bradley Callow is an international speaker, conscious entrepreneur, and catalyst for transformation.

Consulting with businesses on advertising, marketing, and public relations strategies before the age of 20, Callow is no stranger to blazing his own path.

Bradley is committed to challenging the status quo and has a passion for helping others to succeed.

He has created a life dedicated to entrepreneurship, speaking, and most recently behavioral health innovation.



Mentioned in the Show

Benjamin Hardy | How to Build a Million-Dollar Business in 3-Years


You can learn. You can study. But only when you take one specific step in your personal development will you see a significant ROI for your efforts. My guest this week, Benjamin Hardy, took that one step and catapulted his business to more than $1 million in revenue – a 10X jump – in just three years.

Benjamin, author the new book Willpower Doesn’t Work: Discover the Hidden Keys to Success, is a writer (the #1 author on, PhD student, and keen observer of human psychology.

He’s always been pretty ambitious. But it took a pivotal moment a few years back to channel that ambition in the right way.

He shares his approach in this episode, along with…

  • The Forcing Function Strategy for getting real results fast
  • Ways to benefit the most from your mentors (yes, you need more than one)
  • The best place to come up with your best ideas – it’s not the office
  • How to use “escalation of commitment” to achieve your goals
  • Avoiding the danger of ignoring your environment
  • And more...

Listen now to Steve Gordon and Benjamin Hardy

Benjamin Hardy | How to Build a Million-Dollar Business in 3-Years

In this episode we're talking with Benjamin Hardy. Ben is the number one writer on His work has been read by over 50 million people. He went from zero to 300,000 email subscribers in two and a half years, which is absolutely amazing. During that time, he also created a seven-figure business and he completed the adoption of two children that he was fostering in a three-year process. You had to be unstoppable through that and through all that you've done in business, welcome to the Unstoppable CEO.

Thank you. I'm glad to be here with you.

I'm excited to talk about what you have going on. Before we get into the middle of everything, I'd love for you to give everybody a little bit of background and context for what got you to this point in your career.

I'm almost done with my PhD in organizational psychology. I started my PhD program in 2014. In January 2015, my wife and I became the foster parents of three kids and that was the impetus for me to start writing. From 2010 to 2015, I wanted to be a writer. I knew I wanted to be a writer, but I didn't do anything about it. In 2015 when we became foster parents, there was this intense pressure on me to support this family. I went from having zero kids to having three. There's a quote from Will Durant. He's a famous historian and he says, “The ability of the average person could be doubled if their situation demanded them.” Most people rise or fall to the demands of their situation.

 Most people rise or fall to the demands of their situation

Most people rise or fall to the demands of their situation

Once we became foster parents, it created this pressure that led me to feel the urgency to start writing, so I started writing. I started investing in myself, and that's one of the big things that will come out as a theme in this episode is that once I started investing money into my goal to become a writer, I became a lot more committed. The first big investment was spending $800 on my website. That freaked me out in the beginning, then I bought a $197 online course that taught me how to write viral headlines. Those two small investments provoked me to start writing a lot, then I started to educate myself on the craft of how to build an audience and how to do all those things.

I started making bigger and bigger investments in myself. I spent $250 to buy twenty copies of a book from Jeff Goins. He's an online writer and to buy twenty copies of his book, that allowed me to have a 30-minute phone call with him. That 30-minute phone call changed the trajectory of my career. It allowed me to ask him very important questions which tweaked the direction I was going. During this course, I was writing more and more and learning how to get more traffic. Then it came time to write a book proposal. I spent $3,000 to hire Ryan Holiday to help me write a book proposal. Ryan Holiday is a best-selling author. I had wanted to write a book proposal for about a year, but it wasn't until I invested money and hired a mentor who I respected that could show me exactly how I did it, that I wrote the book proposal. There are just investments all along the way that led to increasing commitment. That's how I look at it.

There's a lot to unpack and go to school on right in there, but the first thing that jumped into my mind was if you're faced with a situation where you suddenly have to support a family of five, being a writer isn't the first place that most people would think of. I don't think anybody looks at that as being a lucrative or easy career. What was it about going down that route that called you?

I wanted to be a writer for a long time so I wasn't looking at it from the starving artist perspective. I've seen some of the writers who I admire make millions of dollars and it's not like I had the intention of making millions of dollars in the beginning. When I became a foster parent, I felt this huge pressure not only to support them, but I also felt this reality check that life was going to start moving fast. I was going to have to start supporting these kids, I just felt this weight that things are going to move forward and if I don't pursue this writing thing now, it's never going to happen.

It was this convergence of a lot of things. I felt this pressure to succeed because I had to succeed. My wife gave me an ultimatum. She gave me one year like, “You can buy this website, you can try this stuff for a year, but if you don't get results, you need to focus more on your PhD and get this stuff done.” When I was doing all my writing, I wasn't the best PhD student. I'm still going to finish my degree, but I started to allocate my energy and time towards that. When you're in a position where you need to make money, you figure out how to do. There's this idea that necessity is the mother of invention. In the book, Willpower Doesn't Work, they call that a forcing function. You put yourself in the situation that forces you to function in a specific way. That's what happened. I needed to make money, I created conditions that forced me to succeed, and then I had to make money so I learned how through writing. That's where I had to learn the marketing piece.

I’d love to come back to this idea of investment. It's interesting. It's one of the things I’ve noticed over the years. Every time I made a significant investment in myself, whether that's getting a mentor or investing to get around a group of people or acquire some knowledge, it's not immediate all the time, but there's always a jump that takes place after that. When I try to do it without making that monetary investment, I think that monetary investment is important, that the bump usually doesn't follow or at least not to the same degree. Talk about how making those investments. It sounds like when you made the first ones, they were big investments. Even though they're not a huge amount of money, those are big investments at the time. What does that do to your mindset as you make those investments?

 When you invest in yourself in specific ways, it actually leads to a 10X increase

When you invest in yourself in specific ways, it actually leads to a 10X increase

This is great because this is what I’ve been studying through my PhD. My big question through my PhD is what's the difference between wanting to be entrepreneurs and real entrepreneurs. I spent my whole PhD research interviewing tons of wannabes versus tons of people who are actually real entrepreneurs. What I have found as the core difference between these two populations is that at some point, the real entrepreneurs start investing money in themselves. They start investing money in their job or in their career or their business or in their skill sets, and that investment lead to commitment. In economics, there's a concept called escalation of commitment. What happens is once you become invested in something, it becomes hard not to commit to that thing. It's based on a concept called sunk cost bias, which is an economic term, but with the more and more invested you become in anything financially, you start to wrap your identity around that thing. You start to go from seeing yourself as wanting to do something to actually seeing yourself as that thing. You begin to fully identify with it, you become committed to it. Then you start shifting your focus from the risks to the rewards. There's one other angle about investing in yourself that's different from commitments. Commitment is huge.

There's a quote from a guy named Dr. David Hawkins. He wrote a good book called Power Vs Force and he has also written a book called Letting Go. He says that the unconscious will only allow you to have what you believe you deserve, so if you look at a person's life, it's the product of what they unconsciously believe they can have in their life and what they believe they deserve.

What happens is when you invest money in yourself, whether it's your skills, your abilities, your relationships, your network, you shatter your subconscious paradigm about what you think is possible. You tell yourself, “I believe I can have it, I believe I deserve it,” and you shatter this subconscious paradigm that's limiting you, and then you put yourself in proximity to, let’s say, a mentor. For example, when I made that $250 phone call, not only did I shattered my beliefs that I should invest myself in my writing career, but I put myself in proximity to a writer who I admired and I was able to ask him questions face to face. When you watch yourself do stuff like this, you're convincing yourself that you're serious about it. You're no longer dreaming; you're doing. You're watching yourself invest money, you're watching yourself learn from mentors, and you're watching yourself do these things. From a psychology perspective, who you are is the product of your behavior.

In Western culture, we think that who we are is the product of our personality. We think that your personality is something you're born with and it leads you to behave in certain ways, but what the research shows is that it's actually your behavior that shapes your personality. How you behave on a regular basis determines how you view yourself. When you start investing money in yourself, when you start communicating with mentors and watching all this stuff happen, you're watching yourself do it and so you begin to identify with it. You're like, “I must be a writer,” and then you start acting that way. Those are just some of the ideas. I actually believe that when you invest in yourself in specific ways, it actually leads to a 10X increase. That's why I’ve invested in groups like Genius Network. Genius Network is a mastermind group that costs $25,000 to be a part of. It's extremely expensive, but one of the philosophies of Genius Network is that if you do not make at least $250,000 as a product of your $25,000 investment, if it doesn't at least return 10X, then you can't join again the next year because you didn't actually get out of the group what you should have. That's how I view investing in yourself. It has to be a 10X investment or it's not the right investment.

It's a fundamental principle for making progress. It’s away to engineer the game so that you'll win. Too often I see people running around trying to operate in a vacuum and do things on their own. In my experience, that leads to a whole lot more of what you've got. Again and again, I’ve watched it both in people we've worked with and in my own investments and in my friends and colleagues. It's this cool inflection point to watch when you make that investment and you make that jump because you're getting capability, but in addition to that, you're getting confidence and you're getting a new perspective, all of those are very valuable. You've created this business, you haven't been doing it all that long, you're now the number one writer on Medium, and built an enormous email list. How did all that come about? That doesn't happen overnight, but it's happened very quickly for you. What were some of the keys that contributed to that?

 To be so good you can't be ignored, you have to develop rare skills and abilities

To be so good you can't be ignored, you have to develop rare skills and abilities

I'm going along with this idea of 10X thinking. In 2015 I was still working as a graduate assistant doing research and stuff, but it was halfway through that year that I decided to quit the job and pursue this thing. In 2015, I made $12,000 because that's what graduate students make, they have their tuition paid for. In 2016, I started to learn the methods of growth and I made $110,000 or $115,000, and in 2017 I made over a million. It's like you add a zero every year. How does that work? In the beginning, I was learning how to write viral headlines, but I didn't have the right call to action at the end of my articles. On, you can stick calls to action at the end of your articles and send people to a website or a landing page and try to get them to opt in with a free giveaway. For the first several months I was sending people to my website and I was trying to offer them a free e-book. The problem with sending people to your website is that there are so many distractions, there are so many tabs, and there are so many options.

After I read Russell Brunson's book, Dot Com Secrets, I stopped sending people to my website and I started sending people to a landing page where they only had two options, either give me their email or leave the page. Once I made that shift, I went from getting about 1000 emails a month to getting 5,000 emails a month on the same amount of traffic for my blogs. Then I shifted from an eBook to a checklist. Rather than giving people a high-commitment offer, not everyone wants to read a full eBook, I started offering people a free checklist of the best activities to do in the morning or a cheat sheet on how to do this or that, small actionable giveaways. Once I made a shift from the eBook to the checklist, I went from 5,000 emails a month to 20,000 emails a month with the same amount of traffic. That shows a few things. It shows first off that it's not the amount of traffic that matters, although that does matter, but it's also how the giveaway is structured and where you're sending people. Don't send people to a website, send people to a landing page. Give them an actionable, simple, and easy giveaway that's compelling. Those were some of the big things I learned and then a lot of it was investing.

Once I wrote the book proposal at the beginning of 2017, I got a $220,000 book deal for my first book because I had 100,000 email subscribers at the time. Then I invested that whole book contract, all $220,000 of it, back into the business. I learned how to get a little bit of passive income, a couple thousand bucks a month or up to now 10,000 to 15,000 bucks a month passive income just on traffic from the blog. I invested my entire book deal, all 220 grand of it right back into the book. I hired Ryan Holiday again to help me write the book because I wanted to get better at writing, I hired a publicist, I joined Genius Network, and I joined several other masterminds to create this huge network to set up the conditions so that the game would win. One of the things that Cal Newport talks about is that to be so good you can't be ignored, you have to develop rare skills and abilities. The only way to do that is to get the right mentoring and education. You develop rare skills and abilities and then you develop a network that you can actually give those rare skills and abilities to.

That's one of the big things that most people mistake about investing in yourself is they think that when you invest money in a mentorship or relationship, you immediately think that you've paid them so they should start paying you back. It's all focused on reciprocity. What I’ve found is that the way to go 10Xis you invest money in a mentorship or in a mastermind and then you use your rare skills and abilities that you've developed to be an extreme giver, not a taker. You're paying money to give them stuff. I actually did that. I paid Ryan Holiday a lot of money and he's helped me a lot, but I’ve helped him potentially even more. I've helped get him tens of thousands of email subscribers on his Medium without him having to do much work and I'm happy to do it because he's the mentor I want. It's the same with people in Genius Network. When you pay people money and then you help them, they help you 10Xwhat you could ever imagine because they love you because you're a giver, not a taker. Those were some of the key things I learned.

Going back to the way that you've grown and built an audience, you talked about changing to the landing page. Before that ever happens and before you can ever get to 5,000 email subscribers in a month, you've got to have 5,000 people at least coming to a landing page where you're asking for an email address. The truth is, the vast majority of people who are ever listen to this don't have anywhere near 5,000 people coming to their website in a month. What can you share in a couple of minutes that drove that for you?

I'll go back to the beginning. I started writing online. I took this online course and the online course was from Jon Morrow. It's all about guest blogging. I don't even know if it's available anymore, but it was $197. Truth be told, I actually offer my own course now at this point. I have several hours on writing headlines and things like that, and the only way anyone can get access to those courses if they actually pre-order Willpower Doesn't Work. There's over ten hours of content. What I learned from that course was how to write compelling headlines, and compelling headlines are things that dare or pressure the person to click on it. They need to be highly emotional and interesting, but then obviously you need to provide amazing content so that people get to the bottom and they love it.

I'll give you a couple of examples. For example, I wrote an article called Want to Become a Multi-Millionaire? Do These Fifteen Things Immediately. There's a big number, there's the word multimillionaire and it's “do these things immediately.” It's immediate. There's another article, If You're Not Doing These Five Things, Your Life Is More Off Track Than You Think. There's got to be some intrigue, some emotion, and it's got to feel actionable. Whatever your audience is, it doesn't have to be related to self-improvement. You want to focus on numbers, you want to focus on emotion, and you want to focus on outcomes and outcomes people either want or they want to avoid. If you're in the weight loss category, it's like “Here are six simple steps to avoid belly fat,” or “Here's how to lose 30 pounds in 30 days.” Numbers like that actually work. The big article that blew me up and initially it was called Eight Things Every Person Should Do Before 8:00 AM. It was eight before eight. How did that happen? I took this online course in about May of 2015, and from May until the end of June, so it was about a month and a half, two months, I wrote about 50 articles and I was pitching them to a ton of places. I was writing two to three articles a day sometimes. I was learning how to write headlines and I was practicing a lot.

There are two key concepts here. One is that quantity is the path to quality. If you do a ton of stuff in a small amount of time, you start to develop some skills and some mastery. Number two is it's better to be prolific than perfect. It's better to pump stuff out even if it's not perfect. You can't be a perfectionist if you want to get good at something. You have to be willing to say something that you might regret a few years down the road if you change your mind. There’s stuff that I’ve written about and if you're a person who's constantly learning and growing, your worldview better be changing and you have to be willing to own that. I look back at some of the stuff I initially wrote and I wouldn't have written that today. It's better to be prolific than perfect and it's okay to change your mind if you're going to be continually growing. That's what happened is I wrote 50 articles in two months, one of them went viral, and then I took what I was learning and started to get better and better.

You develop rare skills and abilities, you do a lot of the work, and then you learn from your errors and you learn marketing. That's how you do it. I've coached and trained a lot of people in a lot of people will write 50 articles and they'll not get one to go viral. Again, I had a lot of pressure to succeed. There were a lot of external demands on me. I had a wife and three kids that depend on me, I had been studying again for five years. I wanted to be a writer from 2010 to 2015 so I had read thousands of books. I now had this external pressure to succeed and then I was investing in myself and I was pumping out tons of articles. If you combine all that together, eventually it kicked. It was the right place at the right time too. Medium was totally primed for someone like me to jump on and start blowing it up with self-improvement content that was different from stuff that they'd seen before. A lot of it was situational.

 If we do not create and control our environment, our environment creates and controls us.

If we do not create and control our environment, our environment creates and controls us.

Sometimes those opportunities do come along, but the key takeaway is that focused action is critical. Having gone through a period of a couple of years where we wrote an email to our list every day, which is a lot of content that we put together, I became a better writer than I’ve ever been and it wouldn't have happened without that focused effort. What you're describing is the same, you've got to at some point do the work. I want to hear more about your book. I know you've got a new book coming out. You were gracious enough to share an advance copy with me and I’ve read it. It's fantastic. I would love for you to share with everybody a little bit about the book and why you wrote it.

A lot of my inspiration to write the book came from being a foster parent of three kids, also studying psychology and studying the power of environment. One of my favorite quotes in the book comes from Dr. Marshall Goldsmith. He is a psychologist, and he says that if we do not create and control our environment, our environment creates and controls us. One of the things that I’ve found in studying psychology is that western people, Americans and Europeans, we are very individualistic. We are very focused on ourselves and we almost entirely ignore the power of surroundings and about how the situation influences your thoughts, your behaviors, and even your identity.

Social psychologists have this idea called the fundamental attribution error. Let's say you're driving down the road and someone cuts you off. If someone cuts you off, you're likely to think like that's a bad person. You're not likely to think that person may be in a hurry because of some other factors. When someone does that, they commit what psychologists call the fundamental attribution error. It's the fundamental decision making mistake that Western thinkers make. What the book is all about is that your environment is very powerful. You are the product of your environment, whether it's reactive or proactive, whether you've created an environment you want to be a part of, or whether you're grinding against an environment that you don't want to be a part of, and most people's environments are conflicting with their goals.

Most people's environments are pushing against them and that's why they have to use so much willpower. They have to use willpower in an environment where they have to constantly be trying to resist temptation, whether it's sugar or distraction on the Internet or buzzing on their phone. Most people's environments are set up for them to fail. Because of that, there's a constant use of willpower, and as willpower research finds it's like a muscle that depletes with use. The more decisions you make, the less good those decisions become. Willpower is a bad approach to life, and the reason people use it is because they're so focused on themselves rather than their surroundings. This book is all about how to create situations that force you to succeed, how to think more holistic about life, and how to be more mindful. To me, I think it's going to be a compelling book in 2018. It could be one of the biggest self-improvement books of the year because it's going to be compelling for people. It's going to change the conversation and flip the script a little bit. That's my goal, is that it helps people to actually make the changes they want. In my opinion, people are not going to make the change they want if they don't also change their environment. You can't change yourself if you don't change your environment, they are two parts of the exact same hole. That’s the premise and the book is a very strategic guide about how to change your life.

You talked about two types of environments in the book, high stress and high recovery. Can you explain the two and how they play a role?

In the world of weightlifting, let's say a person does a lot of intense resistance training. They do a lot of weightlifting. It's not during the weightlifting that a person actually gains muscle and gains strength, it’s actually while they're resting and it's while they're asleep. A lot of people don't get stronger because they don't rest enough. Also in the realm of creativity, most creative ideas don't happen while you were at your office. Research says only 6% of good ideas happen while you're at work. Most of those ideas happen while you are totally outside the work environment relaxing and resting. I call these types of environments enriched environments, and enriched environment is where there are lots of things that keep you totally engaged and focused in the moment.

 If you actually give yourself time to rest and recover, you're going to get a lot of clarity.

If you actually give yourself time to rest and recover, you're going to get a lot of clarity.

In a high stress environment, you have a lot of responsibility, you're trying stuff you've never done before, it's difficult, and there are consequences. All of these components of the environment force you to be engaged and you're not distracted. That's almost the opposite of how most people's work environments are. Most people's work environments are low stress, low consequences, high distraction, low flow. The idea is that in both of these types of enriched environments, you're totally engaged and you're in a flow state because the environment is set up for that. If you're in a high pressure situation, you're going to be working very hard, but then you need to rest. Ultimately it's while you're resting and recovering that you're going to be getting not only your best ideas, but it's where the growth happens. There's an idea in organizational psychology, which is what I'm getting my PhD in, and it's called psychologically detaching from work. It talks about how people who don't actually detach from work, mentally, emotionally, and physically, they will have a hard time reattaching to work when they go back.

Most people in today's world, they're always plugged in, they always have their phone on, they're always checking their email, they're never fully on and they're never fully off. They're always midway in between. The idea of enriched environment is that when you're in a high-pressure and high-stakes situation, you're fully on. You are not distracted. When you're in a high-rest environment, you're fully off. You’re fully detach from work, you're fully detached from what you're doing, and you're totally engaged with your other life, whether that's resting or being with your family. In a high rest environment, you're just totally recovering. During that recovery you're setting yourself up to grow in all sorts of ways. In my opinion, those two environments are essential for growth and they're very rare. Very few people have a truly high rest environment and very few people have a truly high stress environment that's forcing them to succeed.

To make this practical for everybody listening, can you describe how you apply these in your own situation?

When it comes to high recovery, people need to optimize for high recovery first. Allow yourself off days, like free days. Dan Sullivan, the founder of Strategic Coach which is a really smart program, he talks about having focus days and having free days. He recommends all entrepreneurs take 150 free days a year. These focus in free days are the same ideas, high stress, high recovery environments. On a free day, you don't work you. If you get an email and you check it on a free day, it no longer counts as a free day. What that means is allow yourself to be off. Tim Farris calls it mini retirement. Take a few mini retirements regularly, give yourself a day where you go and rest and go have a fun day, or just a day where you're with your kids and your wife and you don't have your phone on you. Take a Sabbath, whatever it is. Give yourself time off and recover and engaged back into life. People are so addicted to work. That’s the first practicalities. If you actually give yourself time to rest and recover, you're going to get a lot of clarity. You're going to realize potentially that you're off path. Once you actually get clear, you realize, “I’ve been grinding on the wrong goals,” or “I’ve been doing the wrong things.” That's how you create a high rest environment, is you take off more time. When you're actually home, be home.

Another thing that Dan Sullivan says is wherever you are, make sure that's where you are. Wherever you are, that's where you should be. Be where you are and actually allow yourself more time off, but then when you're actually at work, delete the distractions. Do what you can to not browse the Internet, give yourself timelines. Parkinson's law, give yourself shorter timelines, increase the responsibility of what you're doing, take on different roles, invest in yourself more, invest in relationships, make your work more difficult. What happened to me was I was in a lot of ways forced into a high stress environment when I became a foster parent. The demands were very high and the consequences for failure were high. In the book The Millionaire Next Door, these two professors did a huge research study and they found that the people who become affluent and successful are the people who get paid for results.

Most employees, they don't get paid for results. They get paid for time on the clock, and that's not a high stress environment. You need to get paid for what you actually accomplished. If you want to be in that high level of environment, you need to get paid for what you achieve and there needs to be high level consequences for what you don't. Then you need to continually be trying things you've never done before. One of the people I talk about in the book is John Burke. He's a famous pianist and every album he writes, he tries stuff he's never done before. He writes songs that he doesn't have the capacity to play. That's one of the things that you do is you try stuff that you've never done before, that creates flow, and there's got to be high consequence for failure. Those are some things you could implement.

The book is one of the better self-help books I’ve ever read and I’ve read hundreds at this point in my career. What I love about is that it's compact. It's not this long, drawn out death march to the result. You get right to the point and you give practical advice and so well done. Where can folks find the book? What's the best place for them to go to find the book?

You can go to Amazon. I've provided a link for you, which is

I encourage you to go get the book. It is fantastic, particularly the way that Ben describes how to create your environments so that you're set up for success. I haven't seen that covered in that way anywhere else, and so I recommend that you go and get it. Ben, thanks so much for investing some time with me. This has been a lot of fun.

Thanks for your time.

About Benjamin Hardy

I'm Benjamin Hardy. After three long years fighting in court, my wife, Lauren, and I recently adopted our three kids!

You're probably here because of my writing. I write about self-improvement, motivation, learning, and entrepreneurship. Since late 2015, I've been the top writer on

The purpose of my writing is to help you live in alignment with your highest values and ambitions. To help you COMMIT to the life you really want to live. 

Mentioned in the Show

3 Digital Marketing Trends for Service Businesses [Traffic and Conversion Summit Edition]


In this episode you'll discover the three biggest digital marketing trends impacting service businesses. I just returned from Traffic and Conversion Summit, where the entire conference was focused on these three shifts.

I've distilled it down to principles you need to apply to your business, and explained why they're important. In just 20 minutes, you'll have a high-level game plan for marketing your firm in 2018 and beyond.

3 Digital Marketing Insights from Traffic and Conversion Summit

Here's what's inside this episode...

  1. The critical role of content in your marketing (and the unique advantage it gives you, if you do it right).
  2. How to connect with the influencers and key prospects in your niche in a new and powerful way (this is especially useful if you do tradeshow or conference marketing).
  3. A new way of creating more human experiences on your website that high-ticket prospects prefer, and will shorten your sales cycle.

Listen to Steve Gordon now...

3 Digital Marketing Trends for Service Businesses [Traffic and Conversion Summit Edition]

In this episode, I'm going to share a recap of Traffic &Conversion Summit. It's the big marketing conference that happens in San Diego every year. I came away with three key insights that I'm going to share with you. They're what I call the Three Cs from Traffic &Conversion. We're going to walk through those. Before we do, I want to encourage you to go get my latest book, The Exponential Network Strategy. It's available completely for free. You can go to and grab the book there completely free. You can download it. There are videos that take you chapter by chapter through the book where I explain each concept. You're going to get a ton out of it. Our response has been positive so far. I look forward to you getting that. Drop me a line and let me know what you think once you got it.

Traffic &Conversion was a great conference. There were close to 7,000 attendees out there from all corners of the marketing world. As I talked with folks at the conference and attended sessions, in my mind there were three big themes that came out of it that you can apply in your business. I call them the Three Cs from Traffic &Conversion. The first C is content. There was a lot of talk about content and content marketing. It's a digital marketing conference so no surprise there. What struck me was the fact that despite all of the changes in marketing, despite all of the content that is put out currently, more now than ever before in human history, content is still an incredibly one of the most effective ways to sell today. I see a lot of people doing it in a way that is damaging. They're doing what I call churn and burn content where they're creating fluffy content that doesn't have a lot of depth to it. That isn't working as well. That content is commoditized. You can get it anywhere. To be quite honest, Google isn't going to reward that content. They're not going to rank it.

What I gathered out of the conference from watching several speakers talk about this is that the real success is in sharing deep content., In-depth articles, in-depth videos, in-depth interviews where you're going beyond surface level and getting into information that is worthy of someone's time. It works for a number of reasons. Number one, it conveys to a prospect your worldview. When you have shared worldview with another human, you begin to develop a relationship. You begin to develop trust in that person or that business. Shared worldview is critically important and one of the things that needs to be in content. One of the reasons that you see that surface level content that a lot of people put out is that it can be done without sharing your worldview, without having much of an opinion. You see this in posts or articles that just share ten tips, but each of the tips is at the top surface level. That thing doesn't get you the relationship and trust that you're looking for to advance the sale. Google is the primary entity that can put eyeballs in front of that, unless you're driving your own people to it through ads. They're not going to reward that because their customers, the people searching, aren't going to find that useful. It’s important to infuse everything that you're doing with your worldview. It needs to be opinionated.

The second reason that it works so well is that when you transfer real insights, that's something we've been doing as human beings for a long time. From an evolutionary standpoint, probably a fundamental advantage that humans have over other species on the planet is our ability to share information is unique and powerful. It's something that's baked into us. When we share useful information, particularly when it's deep information that helps another person achieve something, get a result, or move forward in some way, gain some understanding that they didn't have, it helps develop trust and relationship. We're sharing something of ourselves, something that we've gained a resource in the form of knowledge, insight, wisdom that we've created, and we're transferring that to another person. It's incredibly powerful and can lay the foundation of trust and relationship and do it at a scale that you can’t do it in any other way. That part is critical.

We're all beginning to understand what it's like to operate a business in a truly global economy. That was talked about a lot in the ‘80s. It was talked about more in the ‘90s. It's here now. One of the ways that we can build relationship across geographies, whether that's a regional geography, whether that is national or international, is share our knowledge and insights. It's one of the few ways that we can do right now with available technology that has a cost low enough that makes it work. That's one of the reasons you're seeing so much content out there. One of the reasons you didn't see it twenty years ago is not that we have any more knowledge today than we had then, but it's just so much easier to distribute it and less expensive to distribute it. We don't have to stick it on a piece of paper and have someone physically deliver it. Because of that, we're seeing a proliferation of the content. Service business are businesses where what we do isn't easy to show anyone. What we do isn't necessarily a tangible thing. Creating content, sharing your worldview and sharing your expertise, your wisdom, and your insights gives you a way to demonstrate that you can't do in any other forum.

 It's amazing to see the importance of getting together face-to-face

It's amazing to see the importance of getting together face-to-face

The product folks, the ones that are selling product where it's tangible and you can see it and see the utility in it, have it much easier. They're able to demonstrate what they have and show it to you. In a way that if you’re a doctor and you're about to do surgery, you can't possibly demonstrate the surgery to the patient beforehand. If you're an attorney, it's hard to demonstrate how you're going to litigate that case before you litigate the case. Regardless of what profession you're in, we all run into that problem. Content, no matter what form it's in, whether it's an article, a podcast, a webinar, or a live presentation, however you deliver it, gives you an opportunity to demonstrate what you do for your clients, to make that a tangible thing that they can see and assess objectively before they engage you. It can become very powerful if you use it that way. For those three reasons, shared worldview, the ability to build trust, relationship, and scale, and the ability to demonstrate an otherwise intangible service, content is extremely powerful and that's why we're seeing so much of it. The thing that came out of the summit was that it is becoming more and more effective to use content to convert bigger and bigger clients. No matter what business you're in at this stage, it needs to be playing a part in what you're doing.

The second big insight that I gained from the conference was the idea of connection. It's amazing to see the importance of getting together face to face. We've replaced so much human interaction with social media. Even with high-level online interaction through video conferencing, Skype, Zoom and all those great tools, there's still tremendous value in connecting with other humans face to face in the same physical location and space. I had such a great opportunity to connect with so many of the people that I'd met and interviewed on the podcast in person and deepen those relationships. I saw Tony Grebmeier, John Corcoran, Dr. Jeremy Weisz, Dan Kuschell, Mitch Russo, Mandi Ellefson, Bob Serling, Kevin Thompson, Josh Turner and so many more that you'll hear from on the podcast. It's something that if you aren't building that into your business development, make sure that you've got a way to go connect with prospects and the influencers that are in your niche, in your industry.

One of the great tools to have in your toolbox as you're doing that is some platform where you're interviewing these people. I talk about this a lot in my new book, The Exponential Network Strategy. If you haven't gone and gotten a copy, I encourage you to go get a copy. The URL is Unstoppable In the book, I basically lay out the playbook for you on how to use these types of interviews with the people that you want to connect with as a high-value way to open the relationship. Give them value and create strong relationships quickly, because of the way that you're opening the relationship. It’s been transformational for our business. We've used it for years and have formalized it over the last year in this podcast. I encourage you to look at what I lay out in the book and then think about how you can apply that the next time you're going to be someplace where your influencers, your prospects or the people are that you need to connect with and bring into your network. It's a very powerful way to do it, to be able to take those relationships and be very different than anyone else that is at that event. At Traffic & Conversion, there are a lot of people who have podcasts and do interviews. That had more to do with the fact that it was a bunch of marketers getting together than anything else. If you're in another industry and you show up at that industry conference, chances are you're going to be the only one that's doing this thing. It will allow you to be extremely different than anyone else. That's a powerful place to be.

 To be able to engage in a conversation virtually, either through email or some of the new chat tools, gives you a very different way of engaging a prospect

To be able to engage in a conversation virtually, either through email or some of the new chat tools, gives you a very different way of engaging a prospect

The third and final big takeaway from Traffic &Conversion Summit for me was the idea of conversations. We've talked about the Three Cs, content, connection, and the third is conversation. The trend is conversational marketing. In other words, instead of simply trying to gather leads, one way communicate with those leads once we've collected them is to quickly engage in a conversation. This can be done through email. In fact, we had a full day workshop with our elite mastermind clients. We went through how to do this in email because you can do it there just as effectively as some of the other tools that I'm going to talk about to be able to create these interactions where there's a back and forth between you and the prospect and you get them into that back and forth very quickly after they come to you. The goal is to create some momentum in that conversation and in that interaction towards a next step with you.

For most of the businesses that we would work with, that next step is going to be a meeting, a discovery call, a needs analysis, a sales call. To be able to engage in a conversation virtually, either through email or some of the new chat tools, the bots as they're called, gives you a very different way of engaging a prospect. While there are companies doing it, there are a lot fewer companies doing it right now than we're going to see in eighteen months to two years, five years. It's going to become more of the mainstream way to interact with prospects. For most of our audience where you're selling at a high ticket or you're selling B2B, this is something that you're going to want to be thinking about. How can I engage my prospects in a conversation that helps me understand them more, serves them, helps them get to a result faster, and takes us down a sales process more quickly and effectively?

The way that I see this changing things is right now, particularly with digital marketing and online marketing, someone comes to your website and it's basically a ‘choose your own adventure’ for the prospect. Sometimes it's not a great adventure. It's a “choose your own adventure.” They come, they may land on an article that you've written, they may go to another article or series of articles, they may leave, they may come back. You're probably only trying to capture an email address. While that's good and important, and I'm not recommending that you stopped doing that at all, there's a way to turn that from a “choose your own adventure” experience to a guided and led adventure that better serves the prospect ultimately. That's where these conversational tools can come into play and be an advantage for you and for your business and a great service for the prospects. If you've gone through any of these processes, you'll note, if they're done well, that it helps you tremendously. It saves you a ton of time because you're able to get to the point more quickly and get the answer that you need more quickly with that particular business.

They're not all done well. Some of them are the digital equivalent of the department store clerk that the minute you walked through the doors of the department store says, “How can I help you today?”That's great, but the advantage is being able to see where people are interacting, observe what they're doing, and then come in and open the conversation with something that's relevant. Similar to a great department store clerk who will do that, they'll watch what you're looking at. They'll get a sense for what you might be interested in, and then they will come along and begin a conversation with you that is additive to that, rather than just being lazy and saying, “How can I help you today?”That's the advantage that these tools give, particularly for folks who are in B2B or high ticket sales. In the past, there was no good way to do this without coming off as being a little bit pushy. There are going to be ways to incorporate these tools to help guide your prospects towards the discovery of what would otherwise be a complicated solution for them. Get them to a point where they're being served more efficiently. The advantage to them is they're going to save time and the advantage to you is you're going to cut time out of the sales cycle. It's definitely something to be paying attention to.

 Content is still critically important for service businesses because it gives you the power of demonstration.

Content is still critically important for service businesses because it gives you the power of demonstration.

Those are the three big takeaways from Traffic & Conversion. Content is still critically important for service businesses especially because it gives you the power of demonstration which you don't have otherwise. Connection, get out there and get in front of people. Use The Exponential Network Strategy and what I share in the book as a way to connect with people that might otherwise be difficult for you to reach and connect with. Then third, begin to think about how you can use conversational marketing in the communication that you have with your prospects. You can do this perfectly well over email and then grow into some of these other, more sophisticated tools as it makes sense to do that.

I hope you got a lot out of this. It was a fantastic event. Next year, let me know when you’re going and we'll connect. Until next time, stay unstoppable.

Mentioned in the Show